Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

JulianB

Military Medal awards

Recommended Posts

JulianB

I recently saw on the Mil and Naval Press site that someone has produced an enormous volume on all the MM awards

I'm researching MMs awarded to the 123 Coy of the MGC

I have the names, numbers etc but is this book going to tell me when and why these MMs were awarded

If anyone has any access to this book I'd be very grateful if they could look up the following

many thanks

Julian

 

Horridge, Sjt J, 27472             presented with ribbon 12.11.16 (LG 6.1.1917; LG:14 August 1917 Supplement:30234Page:8417)

 

Hall, L/Cpl RC, 45975            presented with ribbon 12.11.16 (LG 6.1.1917)

 

Saunders, L/Cpl AC, 10978   presented with ribbon 12.11.16 (LG 6.1.1917)

 

Cooper, L/Cpl S, 14557          awarded for action 7.6.17 (LG 21.8.1917)

Curtis, Pte E, 30356                awarded for action 7.6.17 (LG 21.8.1917)

‘Confirmed by X Corps, RO No.7190,  27.6.1917’,

presentation of ribbons on 11.7.1917 

 

Oates, Sjt  T, 20732                awarded 14.10.1917  (LG 12.12.1917)

Sutton, Pte                              awarded 14.10.1917

            ‘Ref. DRO 2242, d/- 13.10.1017’

Woulidge, Cpl LB, 45870      date unknown - (LG 2.11.1917) - noted in CWGC

 

 

Bar to MM.

Horridge, Sjt J, 27472             awarded for action 7.6.17 (LG 14.8.1917), ‘Confirmed X Corps, RO No.7190,  27.6.1917’ presented with ribbon  11.7.1917 . (Sgt Horridge’s actual medal and bar were finally presented to him at Grantham on 17.2.1918)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jimbothematlow
Posted (edited)

Good morning Julian,

I imagine that this is possibly Howard Williamson - I'm not sure. However Mr.Williamson rescued the MM cards from the MOD some years ago, as they were going to destroy them Mr.Williamson may have gone to considerable expense to save and especially store these cards - but they must be assumed to now be his property?

I commend him for his efforts to save them - I have met Howard Williamson, and have purchased all three of his excellent books to date on Great War medals.

The MM Cards are available at TNA - well an obverse scan anyway, the reverse of these cards can sometimes give a lot more information, but TNA did not scan the reverse when they had them.

However if you are looking for actual citations - sadly the vast majority are, I believe, long destroyed. 

Edited by jimbothematlow
Didn't want to be in any way offensive!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JulianB

Thank you Jim, I should look up the book details - though I wonder if TNA has it. Otherwise I'll go through the cards you mention. but yes, I feared that the actual citations have long gone. The business of tracking down decendants (who might have details) is just as difficult.

 

At least I have the citations of the two 123 Coy men who won the DCM.

 

J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Clifton

It is possible that the company War Diary may have a mention of the MM action, as the diaries of smaller units sometimes have greater detail of these matters. Otherwise, you could try the diary of 123 Brigade Headquarters, or the A&Q diary of 41 Division, which may also have these details.

 

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JulianB

Thank you Ron, The meagre details I posted are from the WDs (I went through Company, Brigade, Division and even Army !) - though I'm not sure that I went through A&Q (what is that?

 

Having gone through various MGC WDs I note that they vary enormously in detail.!  Regretably the 123 WD doesn't have much detail - compare 124 Coy in the same Brigade !!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mills-bomb
4 hours ago, jimbothematlow said:

Good morning Julian,

I imagine that this is possibly Howard Williamson - I'm not sure. However Mr.Williamson "rescued" the MM cards from the MOD some years ago, as they were going to destroy them - one would think "well done" - but it's obvious that these cards may have been retained as a commercial venture, although Mr.Williamson may have gone to considerable expense to save and especially store these cards.

The MM Cards are available at TNA - well an obverse scan anyway, the reverse of these cards can sometimes give a lot more information, but TNA did not scan the reverse when they had them.

However if you are looking for actual citations - sadly the vast majority are, I believe, long destroyed. 

Personally, I think the tone of your post rather dis-engenious.

I doubt very much if Howard has ‘profited’ much from his endeavours. Having taken on research on a sizeable project myself, I would expect in monetary terms, his reward would be way below the Government ‘minimum wage’ threshold.

 

In my mind he is to commended for his efforts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jimbothematlow

Dear Mills-Bomb, i'm sorry if you took offence to what I wrote - I

 had no intention to be in any way offensive towards Mr Williamson, I have amended my original post. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PRC

Have you been able to identify a home locality for any of these men with a view to checking local newspapers - it's a long shot but less of a long shot than trying to track down descendants and hoping they have something :-)

 

Then, as well as online sources like the newspaper archives attached to the major genealogy sites and the British Newspaper Archive, (free access at your local library), it also gives the option of look up requests here on the forum from members like myself who are regularly in a County Archive looking at titles that are not available on line.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MaxD
4 hours ago, JulianB said:

hough I'm not sure that I went through A&Q (what is that?

 

41 Division HQ Adjutant and Quartermaster General branch

 

Max

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PRC
Posted (edited)

Leonard Benjamin Woulidge received a bar to his MM but sadly died on the 13th October 1918, killed in action. A Derbyshire man, he is remembered at Belton on the Derbyshire \ Leicestershire border. This has been picked up on by a site dedicated to the names on Leicestershire War Memorials and their research includes details of his actions on the 31st July 1917 that led to the first award. I suspect it's taken from the local paper and so, minus the usual introductory wording is very likely to be close to the actual citation.

 

Soon after this he was awarded the Military Medal and special congratulations of his officers for gallantry and determination on July 31st, 1917, when in charge of a gun team he took up a position in front of the infantry, keeping his gun in action, thereby greatly assisting in breaking up an enemy counter-attack.

http://www.leicestershirewarmemorials.co.uk/war/casualty/view/14627

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JulianB

Thank you Peter,  I did see something about Woulidge on a Leicestershire site - but not this description

Brilliant - yes it must have been the Battle of Pilckem Ridge (1st phase of the 3rd Battle of Ypres) which started at 5.30am on 31st July and continued to 2nd August.

 

Oates and Sutton were presented with the (?) ribbons of their MMs on 14.10.1917 (LG 12.12.1917) which suggests that the relevant action would have been in August or September probably for the 23-09-1917 Menin Road action - though very possibly for July ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fellop
Posted (edited)

Julian,

I think the book you refer to in your opening post is: For Bravery In The Field; Great War British Army Recipients of the Military Medal 1914-1920 by Peter Warrington. He also did and accompanying volume for the MC and since the original issue both volumes have been updated a little. The books are published by Naval and Military Press Ltd. These are different from the three excellent volumes by Howard Williamson as mentioned by Jim in Post 2.

The book will only tell you Number, Rank, Name, and the unit he was serving in at the time of the action or event that led to the award and if he survived the war or was killed with a date if known. The book is clear that the unit given is the one at the time of the action/event, it may not be the same unit as he started in or later served in or was his normal unit [he may have been attached].

Example:

HORRIDGE John; MM + Bar; Sjt; 27472 Machine Gun Corps.

HALL Robert Charles; MM ; Pte; 45975 123 Machine Gun Corps; KIA 26.9.17.

 

…...... and so on.

I can do the others for you if you wish but will be a little while as Sunday Lunch bekons

 

Regards

Peter

Edited by fellop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JulianB

Thank you, yes I think that is the book that I spotted. I had optimistically thought that there might be citations ! Otherwise I have the basic details of these men -

 

except  Sutton, Pte  awarded 14.10.1917  ‘Ref. DRO 2242, d/- 13.10.1017’

 

I couldn't identify him at all but if you find him in that book I'd be v grateful

 

J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
charlie962

Don't forget there is an excellent thread on the British Medals Forum for the 'Military Medal' where a large number of local newspaper accounts have been recorded and it is being continually updated. But it still only represents a small proportion of the awards.

 

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John(txic)

Here's a Link to assist you, Julian:

 

https://britishmedalforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53195

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fellop

Hi Julian.

HORRIDGE John. MM+Bar. Sjt 27472 Machine Gun Corps.

HALL Robert Charles. MM. Pte 45975 123 Machine Gun Corps. KIA 26.9.17

SAUNDERS Alfred C MM Pte 10978 Royal West Surrey Regt att MGC.

COOPER Sidney MM. Pte 14557 Machine Gun Corps.

CURTIS Edwin MM. CG[F] Pte 30356 41st Battalion Machine Gun Corps.

OATES Thomas MM. Sjt 20732 123 Coy Machine Gun Corps.

WOULIDGE Leonard Benjamin MM+Bar. Sjt 45870 123 Coy 41st Battalion Machine Gun Corps

 

Now for Sutton. Assuming you are only looking at MGC and Sutton was a Pte then here are your options:

 

SUTTON Henry James MM. Pte 17541 Machine Gun Corps

SUTTON John MM. Pte 63183 Machine Gun Corps

SUTTON William MM. Pte 72114 Machine Gun Corps

 

there is a:

 

SUTTON Thomas J MM. Lcpl 97586 Machine Gun Corps.

 

Hope this is some help

Regards

Peter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fellop

That's okay Julian, no trouble at all doing that for you.

 

Regards

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
collectorsguide

Hi,Howard here,I can clarify some of the points raised :

*The MM Cards were saved by Chris, William Spencer and myself ,from destruction by Army Records and they are currently in the custody of Chris Bate and myself.From them over the past 20 years we have compiled a roll and undertaken much research which enables the date and action for which the MM was awarded, to be (in most cases ) ascertained.The results have been published in the OMRS Journal and my books.

Many of the cards ,around 10,000 are annotated on the back with all sorts of interesting information including some citations,notes on forfeitures/ replacements /,enquiries/,lost and found details /etc etc. I have just completed the work of listing all these entries and explaining the abbreviations etc.There is also a section listing all the forfeitures.I hope to be able to show it at this years convention in its published form.

                              Regarding the cards.We are still using them for the project.From my pension I pay an archivist/typist  £400 per month to store and look after the cards in specially purchased containers.and type manuscripts for the books.When our work is finished we would like to see the archive housed at a permanent venue accessible to the general public.Over the past 20+ years Chris and I have answered thousands of MM and other queries but never charged anyone a penny. The BMF Thread I started has details contributed by members of over 4000 MM details.ALL profits from my books have been ploughed back into the MM and DCM Projects. we hope to have our Rolls out next year as well as handbooks on the DCM and MM which will be of great use we hope to all researchers.

Peter Warrington is to be commended on his version of the MM Roll. It is good as an A to Z Roll and on Gazette dates; and although it describes itself as the "complete " roll we appear to have over 500 more entries and around 200 more bars noted on our Roll. Its main failing is that Mr Warrington failed to consult the MM Cards available on FMP.The cards give the unit/bn /sub unit the MM was won with and on Mr Warringtons Roll, many are missing or he gives all bns served with but doesn't indicate the one with which the  MM was won.The MM cards also carry the Schedule numbers and Registered paper numbers which are extremely useful tools for additional research ,which are again absent from his Roll.

                         Anyway should anyone think I am profiting commercially from either the Cards or my books they are wrong.At the moment the project owes me a bit over £60,000 over the past 20 years or so with no prospect of recovering it:,but then profit was never the incentive!

                                              I hope this clarifys the situation a little. best wishes, Howard Williamson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JulianB

Thank you Peter, I've only just logged in after a busy week (pm sent).

 

Thank you Howard for clarifying the MM books. I look forward to be able to look up the 8 MMs (two of which had bars) and the 2 DCMs.

 

(A new development in my research on the 123rd is that I have made contact with a descendant of one of the officers)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
collectorsguide

There are 7 MMs and 2 bars to unit.Schedule numbers from the MM Cards will identify any awards won together. best w, Howard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bif
On 17/07/2019 at 20:44, collectorsguide said:

available on FMP.

HOWARD,   

     I have the first three volumes of the COLLECTOR's GUIDE.  Thank you all for sharing your research and knowledge with us neophytes and newbies.  In post # 18, you mention the MM cards being available on FMP.  I have a subscription.  Are you saying there is a separate "file" on FMP just for the MM cards ?  I always thought that it was part of what MAY be found when you researched the records.  If there is a separate MM "file" how do you access it ?   I am a research neophyte and confirmed techno-peasant, but I do try very hard when shown, or more often get pushed, in the right direction.  Any suggestions in tracing that info on FMP  would be greatly appreciated.

                                                             Respectfully,

                                                                                 bif ( John )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Keith_history_buff
8 minutes ago, bif said:

MM cards being available on FMP


Hi John,

The MM cards are a subset of the WO 372/23 series of cards. They can be accessed for a fee via The National Archives.(You can also preview them.) I have been unsure on what sort of coverage of these cards is within the Ancestry MIC set, whether they have some or all. I believe that FMP had launched their MM MIC collection in 2015 or 2016.

Best wishes

Keith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JulianB

Thanks - I was just about to ask where to find the 'MM cards' that Howard mentioned.  I have to go to TNA at some point on various bits a piecs of research, so I'll add that too !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...