Spielberg's '1917'

[Steven Broomfield]

19 hours ago, H M Hulme said:

 

In similar vein... 

 

I took this photo a month ago in Shrewsbury Abbey. I was interested in the range of units and regiments in which these Shrewsbury men served, some quite far afield. I assume many would have moved away from their home town and thus joined up in (say) Manchester  - and others would have transferred (or been transferred) during the war, on return from sick leave, maybe - or to a newly formed Regiment like the Machine Gun Corps. Does this make sense?

 

 

 

 

If you take out the Corps and Services and look only at the infantry you will see a third of the dead came from the local regiment. Add another in the Herefordshire Regiment (a TF unit which was part of the Corps of the KSLI, I believe) and three blokes who were in the Cheshires (neighbouring County) plus a few from neighbouring Welsh regiments, and we can see that a large proportion of infantrymen died wearing the badge of their local regiment. Not every many from the Essex Regiment might have come from Essex but I bet the proportion would have been high enough that local accents would have been common.

4 hours ago, pierssc said:

Too right.  On 3rd April my grandfather's Squadron was at La Gorgue.  "Got up to find a snow drift inside the tent snow covering certain of our goods and chattels. Snowed most of the forenoon and in the afternoon cleared up."

 

As I said earlier in this thread, on 11th April the 8th Cavalry Brigade galloped the German positions north of Monchy in a snowstorm; on the preceding two nights, several of the Brigade's horses had died of cold and exposure.

[H M Hulme]

4 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Well as we long ago went off topic:- 

This is an extract of an Op Order for operations on the first day of the Arras Offensive.  Why didn't they just use the pigeons? 

 

 

An even shorter film 

[H M Hulme]

18 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

If you take out the Corps and Services and look only at the infantry you will see a third of the dead came from the local regiment. Add another in the Herefordshire Regiment (a TF unit which was part of the Corps of the KSLI, I believe) and three blokes who were in the Cheshires (neighbouring County) plus a few from neighbouring Welsh regiments, and we can see that a large proportion of infantrymen died wearing the badge of their local regiment. Not every many from the Essex Regiment might have come from Essex but I bet the proportion would have been high enough that local accents would have been common.

 

 

Ah, interesting - thanks. And I agree about the local accents. From the social histories I've read regional accents were far more prevalent - and less diluted - than today. 

 

H

[Steven Broomfield]

7 minutes ago, H M Hulme said:

 

An even shorter film 

 

And, dare I say, a more believable one.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

9 minutes ago, H M Hulme said:

 

An even shorter film 

Indeed.

 

Then perhaps the film maker should have considered his options:

1) The sensible solution to this plot hole is going to make for an extremely short film

2) Continue with this implausible plot to make a long film, but hope nobody notices

3) Think of a different plot

[H M Hulme]

OK - going to stick my neck out here! Surely messenger pigeons only return(ed) to their lofts - be these permanent or the moveable carts used on the WF - so how would they know to fly to old Cumberbatch's battalion?

 

Back to messages and runners...

 

A cousin reminded me of very recently (after he had seen 1917) that my grandfather (him of the KSLI previously mentioned) was commended for carrying a message under fire in 1917 - the year NOT the film. My grandfather was a 2nd Lt at the time, having enlisted as a Private. He told my male cousin about this in detail before he died; otherwise we would never have learnt of it since he never spoke of WW1 at all to close female family. My cousin wrote a third-person account of their conversation. I like this bit:

 

Quote

Eventually, they managed to reach the destination trench and dropped down into it, to the great surprise of the soldiers there. As instructed, they handed the message to an officer, who was incredulous that they had survived such a dangerous journey. They were ordered to rest and take some meagre refreshment whilst the officer consulted his superiors. A short time later, the officer returned and, with great apology, ordered them to return with a reply. This they did, once again arriving safely.

 

Even so, I don't think we could stretch this to 120 minutes.

[squirrel]

8 hours ago, H M Hulme said:

 

Ooooh! Do you have a source?

WW2 but relevant IMHO - My uncle was wounded in Italy.

At base hospital he was: 

1) put on a charge by the Ward Sister (Major) for having dirty boots. 

2) ordered to sit to attention when the Doctor (Major) made his ward rounds.

3) ordered to fold his hospital blues with white shirt and red tie to resemble the Union flag.

Unsurprisingly, he recovered quickly.

[Norrette]

Finally went last night. i don't usually go to the flicks - I prefer to watch with a glass of wine in front of a DVD.  I thoroughly enjoyed it.  Especially as it was in real time from the pov of the main character.  I felt I was there - I quite often leaned forward to pull the combatants away from danger, and I'm glad the volume wasn't as loud as the preceding adverts.

Problems - I was concerned already that there was no snow, but I soon forgot that.  I thought about the 'grass is greener' shots but then thought it would be particularly grim viewing if the monochrome of mud would prevent many from seeing the film and would become monotonous. Certainly the reviewers would not have nominated the film for anything.

My main niggle as I voiced to a family member next to me - 'they should have at least one officer with them'.  We decided that this was a very unofficial excursion.  The connection between Cumberbatch and Firth scripts seemed to question the whole premise. And still leaves me questioning interpolitics between leaders of the various sections of the army.

Accents?  My London lot were in the Royal irish Regiment, South Lancs and Canadian Mounted Rifles. 'Woke'? Behave yourself!

However, in a largish Odeon cinema, myself and 2 other family members made up 25% of the audience! But it was a quiet night all round at that mutli screen venue.

Recommend.

Norrette
 

[healdav]

On 13/02/2020 at 12:21, H M Hulme said:

 

Ooooh! Do you have a source?

The RN Manual of Seamanship.

[Gunner Bailey]

It think the Boff letter to the Tottygraph was a 'angry of Tonbridge Wells' (or Birmingham) type, which saw it as crime against history. If it's the one I'm thinking of.

 

Chill out prof (and you lot) - It's fiction.

[seaJane]

10 hours ago, healdav said:

The RN Manual of Seamanship.

@H M Hulme I can probably locate a copy and provide text on Monday if you are interested.

[stevem49]

On my 'young people might be drawn to WW1' (or something like that. ) I was getting my eye test done last week and a 20 something was doing it. 'Have you seen 1917' he said. 'Yes I have' I replied. He then went on to tell me that he is now reading up on the Great War and it is fascinating.  Therefore maybe the film will bring new Great War nerds like us, only much younger  

As Mrs M keeps telling me 'It's a blo**y film, not an historical document, so stop going on about it' 

[stevem49]

On 12/02/2020 at 20:40, H M Hulme said:

 

In similar vein... 

 

I took this photo a month ago in Shrewsbury Abbey. I was interested in the range of units and regiments in which these Shrewsbury men served, some quite far afield. I assume many would have moved away from their home town and thus joined up in (say) Manchester  - and others would have transferred (or been transferred) during the war, on return from sick leave, maybe - or to a newly formed Regiment like the Machine Gun Corps. Does this make sense?

 

Apologises for the unhelpful angle. I was trying not to look like a Wilfred Owen groupie 

 

(PS My maternal grandfather was KSLI. He joined up as in September 1914 in Shrewsbury and made it home in 1919 with only a couple of bouts of toothache.)

4659 Pte Francis Harris killed Feb 1915 and commemorated on Le Touret Memorial, so probably a regular.  1st Battalion who returned from India on outbreak of war. 

[Norrette]

On 14/02/2020 at 10:12, Norrette said:

My main niggle as I voiced to a family member next to me - 'they should have at least one officer with them'.  We decided that this was a very unofficial excursion.  The connection between Cumberbatch and Firth scripts seemed to question the whole premise. And still leaves me questioning interpolitics between leaders of the various sections of the army.
 

 

Since I wrote this I went back to my copy of the Iliad and, bearing in mind @oldForge 's reference to the Odyssey above, this resonated with book 1 of the Iliad - The Quarrel By the Ships - with Achilles and Agamemnon having goes at each other.

[Steven Broomfield]

11 hours ago, Norrette said:

 

Since I wrote this I went back to my copy of the Iliad and, bearing in mind @oldForge 's reference to the Odyssey above, this resonated with book 1 of the Iliad - The Quarrel By the Ships - with Achilles and Agamemnon having goes at each other.

 

I suspect you might be over-thinking things if you reckon it was inspired by the Iliad.

[Gunner Bailey]

5 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

I suspect you might be over-thinking things if you reckon it was inspired by the Iliad.

 

Ripping Yarns?

[Norrette]

15 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

I suspect you might be over-thinking things if you reckon it was inspired by the Iliad.

 

Well one has to try... But you can see parallels in the big picture of the war. The stand off at Troy for example?

[Hyacinth1326]

 

I am certain the inspirations were many and varied, Medal of Honour ? (honor)  Pacman ?  I am not being totally facetious. Some critics have commented on a certain arcade game quality to sections of the narrative.

Edited 16 February , 2020 by Hyacinth1326

[trajan]

3 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

I suspect you might be over-thinking things if you reckon it was inspired by the Iliad.

 

Yep, we are missing a 'Catalogue of ships'...

[Mark Hone]

On a slight tangent, can I recommend the episode about The Iliad in the latest series of Radio 4's  'Natalie Haynes Stand Up For The Classics', available on BBC Sounds? Classicists of my acquaintance enjoyed it, as did I. 

Getting back to '1917', having started the thread originally, I still haven't managed to see it. My latest attempt to watch it at our local Vue cinema was thwarted by their crackpot practice of having one queue for both cinema tickets and food. Mrs H. refuses to turn up until after the stated start time because of her aversion to half an hour of deafening adverts and trailers, so we we ended up behind a line of people ordering repulsive-looking hot dogs etc which the harassed-looking youth behind the counter was preparing individually. It took him 15 minutes to serve one family and we realised that we would probably miss the start of the film ( and possibly the first half hour) so gave up. We'll try again later in the week after ordering the tickets online. Everybody I know who has seen it has raved about the film but they're not Great War 'Greatcoats'. I've promised Mrs H. that I'll approach it with an open mind.  

Anecdotally, it does seem to have inspired an interest in the subject-matter amongst younger people who have seen it, similar to 'Dunkirk' a couple of years ago. How long-lasting this proves is another matter  

Edited 19 February , 2020 by Mark Hone

[Bart150]

The Kino cinema, Rotterdam offers this rather zany concept.

 

Cry-Baby Cinema: 1917 
Zaterdag 22 februari om 10:20
Kom samen met je baby naar de film! Wij zorgen ervoor dat het geluid iets zachter staat en het licht gedempt aan blijft. Er is ruimte om voeding op te warmen in een magnetron en je kunt makkelijk de zaal in- en uitlopen als dat nodig is. Deze editie: 1917 van Sam Mendes.

 

MACHINE TRANSLATION

Cry-Baby Cinema: 1917

Saturday, February 22 at 10:20 AM

Come to the movies with your baby! We ensure that the sound is a bit softer and the light stays on. There is room to heat up food in a microwave and you can easily walk in and out of the room if needed. This edition: 1917 by Sam Mendes.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I can just see the little babs going "Goo goo ga ga" at the screen when the L/Cpl whips out that dirty bottle of unpasteurized unmodified cow's milk that had been standing around god knows how long in a bucket in the farmyard.

[Mark Hone]

Going back to the 'saluting-while-not-wearing-headdress' issue, this has been a common feature of BBC dramas for some time, e.g. 'Doctor Who' and 'Sherlock'. 'Sherlock' also featured a bearded British Army officer in one particular episode, along with a bunch of extras purporting to be soldiers who hadn't the faintest idea of how to wear a beret. In the current series of 'Call the Midwife', the character of Fred Buckle, supposedly a Second World War veteran, has suddenly taken to saluting minus headgear, including when he was filmed in the crowd watching Churchill's funeral procession and when dismissing his band of Civil Defence volunteers whilst in uniform. However, as my dear old mother used to remind me: 'It's only a play'

Edited 19 February , 2020 by Mark Hone

[TullochArd]

......… far too many British sandbag stretchers with the seams exposed for me …….. clearly never had a copy of the Manual of Field Engineering to hand.

[Mark Hone]

We finally saw it this afternoon at our local Vue cinema. Mrs H. knew roughly what it was about but we hadn't dicussed it in detail beforehand. She has been on numerous battlefield tours and seen plenty of war films. 'Band of Brothers' is probably her favourite TV series of all time. Her immediate impressions:

1. A good film which had the potential to be brilliant but ultimately didn't quite manage it.

2. After a shaky start (she didn't find the two principals very convincing) the bit where they set off on their mission-the recreation of the trenches and no-man's land, was the best part of the film. It was incredibly vivid and gripping.

3. Unfortunately it ran out of ideas about half way through and became like a computer game. 

4. It was as if they lost faith in the ability of the story to hold the viewers' attention and turned it into a standard, far-fetched Hollywood action film.

5. Overall she found the film oddly unmoving, which she was surprised by. However maybe the downbeat ending had the ring of truth to it. 

6. Parts of the plot made no sense e.g. why didn't Colin Firth just send an aeroplane to drop a message? 

7. She felt that, unusually for a film about the Great War, the British were fairly clearly presented as 'the goodies' and the Germans as 'the baddies'. I didn't think about that until my wife mentioned it afterwards. 

8. She thought that it would have been better to use the amazing filming techniques to depict a true story rather than what became at times a sort of World War One version of 'Minecraft.'

As discussed earlier, the basic premise of the plot is ridiculous but it reminded me of the critic of 'Stagecoach' who asked why the pursuing Apaches didn't just shoot the horses. ''Because then", responded choleric director John Ford, "there wouldn't have been a G----- D----- picture!"

 

Edited 1 March , 2020 by Mark Hone