Spielberg's '1917'

[Steven Broomfield]

On 17/01/2022 at 15:57, Neil Mackenzie said:

Without being too political, white actors have been playing non-white characters for at least 100 years without it stopping most of us watching the films in question ("A Passage to India" springs to mind) so I don't think that is a major issue.

Neil

Hmmm ... but in 1917 there wasn't (to invert your argument) a black actor playing a white person, but a token Indian who appeared completely out of any context, giving the impression that he was there so an Indian could be included.

[ilkley remembers]

Lawrence Fox touted this argument after the film was released claiming that the inclusion of the Sikh soldier was an example of forcing diversity on cinema audiences and furthermore that his inclusion was, rather bizarrely, an example of institutional racism. His comment about what he labeled  the “ gratuitous Sikh’, however, brought a backlash not least from the Sikh community who were at pains to remind Fox of the significant role that soldiers from the Indian Sub-Continent had played on the Western Front during WW1. A chastened and somewhat shame faced anti-woke campaigner then withdrew his comment and claimed that he had enjoyed the film particularly the scene where a mother is holding her child which, he said , made him want to cry.

 

Hardeep Singh suggested that the widespread and well reported criticism of Fox had in fact done the Sikh community a favour by highlighting the role of Indians in the war to a somewhat ignorant British public.  I would presume that this is not a gap in the knowledge of most members of this forum.

 

As far as I am aware the films director, Sam Mendes, maintained a dignified silence about the matter

[RedCoat]

1 hour ago, ilkley remembers said:

Lawrence Fox touted this argument after the film was released claiming that the inclusion of the Sikh soldier was an example of forcing diversity on cinema audiences and furthermore that his inclusion was, rather bizarrely, an example of institutional racism. His comment about what he labeled  the “ gratuitous Sikh’, however, brought a backlash not least from the Sikh community who were at pains to remind Fox of the significant role that soldiers from the Indian Sub-Continent had played on the Western Front during WW1. A chastened and somewhat shame faced anti-woke campaigner then withdrew his comment and claimed that he had enjoyed the film particularly the scene where a mother is holding her child which, he said , made him want to cry.

 

Hardeep Singh suggested that the widespread and well reported criticism of Fox had in fact done the Sikh community a favour by highlighting the role of Indians in the war to a somewhat ignorant British public.  I would presume that this is not a gap in the knowledge of most members of this forum.

 

As far as I am aware the films director, Sam Mendes, maintained a dignified silence about the matter

So why not have a group of soldiers from a Sikh battalion instead of one mixed in with British troops. Instead of having mixed race and black soldiers in the Devons, wouldn't it have been more accurate to have had a group of black soldiers from a West Indian unit mending a road?

It was a sh1te film made by people who know very little about the First World War. Whats more, the director couldn't even get his own Grandads regiment correct in the credits.

[phil andrade]

Does memory serve me here if I suggest that there was actually a vignette of black soldiers deployed as labourers in the background of  one of the scenes ?

 

Maybe I've not recalled properly, but I think I can remember heaving a sigh of relief that at least they'd got that right.....although, as Redcoat points out, the solitary Sikh in the lorry with the British troops did smack of tokenism.

 

 

Phil

[ilkley remembers]

Previous threads on the GWF have noted the presence of black soldiers in British Regiments and although ethnicity was not recorded on enlistment it is reasonable to assume that their numbers were rather more than a mere handful. The depiction of an Indian soldier in ‘1917’ rather than being dismissed as ‘Tokenism’ might be interpreted as an accurate representation of a reality, ie that men from ethnic minorities were to be found in the ranks.

[kenf48]

10 minutes ago, ilkley remembers said:

ie that men from ethnic minorities were to be found in the ranks.

As evidenced by this recent photograph (amongst others) on the Postcards thread. credit to @BigR

 

As it appears we have to signpost everything spot the 5th man outer file

and to satisfy the pedants have amended the title of this thread (was tempted to lock it as everyone has probably seen the film and formed an opinion on it)

[Moonraker]

23 hours ago, phil andrade said:

... Maybe I've not recalled properly, but I think I can remember heaving a sigh of relief that at least they'd got that right.....although, as Redcoat points out, the solitary Sikh in the lorry with the British troops did smack of tokenism

Very recently I started this thread about a man born in England of West Indian heritage (and evidently so, looking at photographs of him) who drove lorries,ambulances and, for six months, staff officers in a variety of impressive cars.

[phil andrade]

Time to watch the film again, since I subscribe to Netflix , and revisit the scene with the Sikh soldier.  It might change my mind.

 

Phil

[Gunner Bailey]

On 20/01/2022 at 18:20, phil andrade said:

Does memory serve me here if I suggest that there was actually a vignette of black soldiers deployed as labourers in the background of  one of the scenes ?

 

Maybe I've not recalled properly, but I think I can remember heaving a sigh of relief that at least they'd got that right.....although, as Redcoat points out, the solitary Sikh in the lorry with the British troops did smack of tokenism.

 

 

Phil

That would be the British West Indian Regiment. 12,000 men from the West Indies served with them, mainly doing labouring work. Add to that people of West Indian heritage born in the UK who served with all  Corps and Regiments (maybe not the guards) and yes people of colour would have been visible to all. 

If you look at a couple of photos in my book there were clearly Indian and West Indian faces in the ASC. One problem is that photos were taken with Orthochromatic film and dark skin alters in tonality a little.

[Steven Broomfield]

On 21/01/2022 at 22:34, phil andrade said:

Time to watch the film again, 

 

Phil

Way beyond the call of duty, I'd say.

And given the woeful implausibilities in much of the film, I'd stick with tokenism.

[Felix C]

I was more irked by a fat frontline young soldier. The fellow in the truck could be doing what anyone would do in similar circumstances, hitching a ride. And yes probably a token. I do not recall a black fellow in the film. If so, made no impression. The German airman living up to the propaganda stereotype was unbelievable. And it was a film not a docu. Still the fatty. I could understand a beefy big bone solider just not a fat one.  

Oh and to add, the indiscipline among the German soldiers shown. The setting was not after Michael in 1918. That would be understood. Especially after August 1918. 

 

Edited 25 August , 2022 by Felix C

[Moonraker]

I'm not sure if this locations website has been mentioned already.

[Gunner Bailey]

On 20/01/2022 at 12:07, RedCoat said:

 

It was a sh1te film made by people who know very little about the First World War. Whats more, the director couldn't even get his own Grandads regiment correct in the credits.

Just seen this. The technical advisor was Andrew Robertshaw who I think most people would agree, knows a lot about the Great War.

[593jones]

1 hour ago, Gunner Bailey said:

Just seen this. The technical advisor was Andrew Robertshaw who I think most people would agree, knows a lot about the Great War.

Having a technical advisor is all very well as long as they actually take their advice.  I remember Tim Carew writing that he was a technical advisor for the film 'The Red Beret', but that his advice went largely unheeded.

[trajan]

I have appeared as a 'guest expert' in quite a few archaeological documentaries (Nat.Geog., etc.), and can assure you that the producers usually have the their plan for the project worked out in advance before they ask said 'experts'...

Julian 

[Gunner Bailey]

1 hour ago, 593jones said:

Having a technical advisor is all very well as long as they actually take their advice.  I remember Tim Carew writing that he was a technical advisor for the film 'The Red Beret', but that his advice went largely unheeded.

I actually thought the staging of 1917 was very good.  You have to separate the plot from the visuals.

[squirrel]

Shame about the historical accuracy then.

[Gunner Bailey]

12 hours ago, squirrel said:

Shame about the historical accuracy then.

I think you will have to take that up with the director and the scriptwriters. 

[Andy davidson]

On 24/08/2022 at 19:17, squirrel said:

Shame about the historical accuracy then.

I was in Courcelette and went kayaking on the river Somme on a day off from the battlefields, didn't see any rapids though. 

[Gunner Bailey]

There's a bit of a waterfall in central Albert. That's probably where the idea came from.

[Moonraker]

It's being screened on BBC1 at 2100 on  Tuesday, December 27. Just about the only TV offering that caught my eye when glancing through the Sunday Times listings for the next fortnight (though on the same day BBC2 is showing "The Adventures of Robin Hood" at 0935 - that's the Errol Flynn one).

[593jones]

Did you not notice 'The Great Escape' is being shown on Christmas Day?  That's proper Christmas TV, just like it used to be!

[Alan24]

34 minutes ago, 593jones said:

Did you not notice 'The Great Escape' is being shown on Christmas Day?  That's proper Christmas TV, just like it used to be!

Great, I'll let the wife know. She'll be thrilled! (Again). 

[593jones]

9 hours ago, Alan24 said:

Great, I'll let the wife know. She'll be thrilled! (Again). 

I'm sure she'll be even more delighted when you tell her that 'Zulu' is being shown on New Years Eve in the afternoon (Channel 5)  😁

[KGB]

On 18/12/2022 at 23:33, 593jones said:

I'm sure she'll be even more delighted when you tell her that 'Zulu' is being shown on New Years Eve in the afternoon (Channel 5)  😁

True story, Lib Dem conference, three Moderators dealing with 900 enquiries against the clock. After, as the dust settles one said "That was the cyber equivalent of Rorke's Drift". He was reported for "racism".