Can anyone help with this acronym?

[Marianne]

Hi, 

 

My great grandfather was killed in action in 1915. We were told that he had no known grave and was therefore commemorated on a memorial near to Ypres. After much research, we have come across a log from the regiment that details his death and states he was buried and it gives a map reference for his grave. Obviously this is amazing news for us as a family but there is an acronym that appears near the map reference and I’m struggling to understand it. I have attached a photo. It looks like HD: something. The same acronym is used in other areas of the log and appears to be used in the context of being plural. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Many thanks 

[alf mcm]

Marianne,

  Welcome to the forum.

  What you have underlined is short for Headquarters.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[Old Owl]

Hi Marianne,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

It could be short for 'Head Quarters' although it doesn't really look like that?

 

Robert

 

Snap!!

Edited 18 November , 2018 by Old Owl

[BillyH]

I too believe it is    Hd : Qrs :   and the 'Q' is exactly as I was taught to write it at primary school in the 1950's!

 

BillyH.

[Marianne]

Thank you everyone for your replies. 

I thought headquarters originally but then it makes no sense in other contexts where the acronym is used. For example in the photo attached where it is detailing the companies embarking the train and whom they were to be under it states C + D Cos under Capt Bradford entrance E. 

A + B cos with HD: ?? Under Lieutenant Kirkup. So Headquarters wouldn’t make sense. 

 

Any idea?

 

Many thanks again  

[alf mcm]

Marianne,

  Headquarters in this context means Headquarters staff, i.e. Commanding Officer, Adjutant, perhaps other officers, Signallers, Cooks, Runners, Servants etc. More or less all those who were not in the Companies.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[Marianne]

Thank you Alf, that’s really helpful. So in the line where it says he was buried near Headquarters and then the map reference, hopefully a relevant trench map would help us to identify the exact location? Has anyone ever heard of a case like this before where a body was documented as lost but then New informaion provided a location? Not sure what the best next step is. 

Thank you again 

[Ken Lees]

This happened frequently. Many thousands of graves were lost, or in some cases, the identification of the occupant of the grave was lost. 

 

Who was your man and what is the original grave map reference? 

[Marianne]

Thanks Ken, 

i just wondered if anyone had heard of anything like this happening more recently where the burial location has been identified. As far as I am aware, there is no grave so to speak. It’s just the location of the burial site which we have been able to identify on a trench map as being not far from Armentieres. I have cross referenced this with the trench he was last in and it’s about 0.4 miles away. I just wondered who best to contact and what usually happens in cases like this. 

Marianne 

[TEW]

Assuming the grid reference you have is accurate it will most likely refer to a 50x50 yard square. This square may have had many burials in it. If his burial was reported correctly at the time which sounds likely then a post war team would have exhumed the body and 'concentrated' him into a cemetery. So, I suspect he was reburied but as an unknown. The only course I can think of is to determine the most likely cemetery and then look through all the concentration sheets for an unknown that could be your GGF. However, there will be many unknowns and unless part of a name or number is given you'll be no closer to his present location.

Apologies if this sounds harsh.

TEW

[Marianne]

Thank you for your help. 

[TEW]

If you want to supply details for GGF and/or provide links to the records you have for the details of his death and the map reference for his grave then I'm sure you'd get a lot of help from members.

 

If the map reference is given in a service file or written in the unit diary that probably means a Graves Registration Unit was informed of the burial and its location at the time.

 

The task then is to find out which is the closest cemetery that took in post war 'concentrations' and hopefully match up the two map references. In practise, the 50x50 yard square may have provided numerous 'concentrations' who were reburied in the cemetery as an Unknown British Soldier. The concentration sheets may add some clues EG UBS Middlesex Regiment, or UBS with sergeant's rank. Occasionally you may get part of a name or number.

 

The only other issue is whether both map references were taken accurately and therefore match up.

 

I don't mind having a look if you supply the details.

TEW

[Marianne]

Hi TEW, 

 

Thank you once again for your kind response. I’ve contacted the CWGC so will await a response from them. The story has however, become a bit more confusing. I started by doing what you said and I ended up coming across a concentration form that included my GGF. It states: map reference where body found and then goes on to give a reference. Then it states Was cross on grave? Yes. Then his details, then Means of identifications: cross. Then it states no remains found. 

This leaves me a few issues. 

1) the map reference where body was found is not the same map location as the battalion log states, nor is it particularly close. 

2) The reference where it states the ‘body’ was found is very very close to the front line trench that he was in - which on its own could be understandable. However, the battalion log stating the location of the burial says - near headquarters. Is it likely a headquarters would be so close to the front line? 

3) a cross was reported to be there which identified him - 5 years later, so close to the front line where there was undoubtly continued fighting/shelling etc for some time after his death. 

 

Had the location on the concentration form been closer to that reported in the battalion log I would’ve felt more at ease with it, but the distance between is around half a mile? 

 

Thank you for sticking with me and for all of the help and advice. 

[Marianne]

Hi everyone, 

 

I’m looking for a bit of advice. My great grandfather was killed in 1915. He left behind a tiny baby - my grandfather. As my grandfather grew older, he and my dad started to do some research into my great grandfather and what had happened to him. Information sent to them from

CWGC and the local record office stated that he was killed in action and he had no known grave. He was therefore commemorated on the memorial at Ploegsteert. My grandfather sadly passed away and my father and I have since started to look more into the experiences and circumstances relating to my great grandfather. Last week, we managed to locate the log for his battalion which we were thrilled about as it details each day from the day they left the station. Fast forward to the date of his death and the Captain writing the log describes his death as well as stating ‘near HD:QTRS an exact map reference and details of the site of his burial. 

Obviously we were amazed by this as for this whole time, we had been led to believe that his body was simply lost and never recovered so it was lovely to know that he had been buried and that the Captain had taken the time to carefully record the exact details. 

I was therefore then interested to start looking into grave concentrations that occurred after the war had ended. I located the concentration report which has led me to some confusion. 

Firstly it states ‘Location where body found’ and gives a map reference. 

Then it states ‘Was cross on grave?’ Yes.

Then ‘Means of identification’ Cross. Then it states ‘No Remains Found’. 

The map location given on the concentration report is not the same as the one written in the Battalion log. It’s around half a mile away. I am also curious as the location on the concentration report is very close to the Front Line Trench. If my Grandfather was killed in 1915 is it not strange that there would be a cross on a supposed burial in tact over 5 years after his death right on the front line? 

Obviously I understand that it may come to nothing and that it may be that he is simply lost, but my family and I feel that it is something we need to look more into. We would like to know if the site stated in the Battalion log for the location of his grave was ever ‘concentrated’.

Can any one offer any advice or point me in the direction of a professional in this sort of field who may be able to help my family further? 

 

Many thanks

 

 

[TEW]

You say you have his concentration sheet but the map ref is half a mile out. Surely that means it's the wrong concentration sheet? 

As to being close to the front line perhaps the front line has moved. You'll probably get lots of help if you supply his details. Have you checked all the the concentration sheets for that cemetery? Possibly it's another cemetery? 

TEW

[Marianne]

Hi TEW,

 

Thanks for replying. The concentration sheet names him and uses his service number. It is attached to his page on the CWGC. As well as this, it names another soldier who was killed in the days before my grandfather whom I read about also in the battalion log. There was no reference to the grave/burial of that soldier. In fact in the whole log, my great grandfather is the only one I have found that has detailed the precise location of the burial.  I haven’t checked any others. This is all new to me and I’m not sure of the best place to obtain that information. Is there one site where you can access concentration reports? 

When I referred to being close to

the front line, the location of the cross as detailed on the concentration report is very close to where the front line was at that time. It may have moved but it still doesn’t make sense. The battalion log states ‘buried near HD:Qtrs’. I located the burial site as detailed in the log on the trench map stated. I then used records from a number of battalions and found that there was indeed a HQ very close to the grid reference given to us in the log. Again, this is around half a mile away from the map location given to us on the concentration report. I don’t want to post of his details as of yet, just because I would prefer to ask the permission of my father before I did. But I really would be grateful of any general advice or guidance or if someone could point me in the direction of a professional who may be able to advise and help? 

 

Many thanks again, I really appreciate it. 

[TEW]

OK, I understand now why you can't give details. Certainly very odd to have a man identified on a concentration sheet but not to have a known grave. I believe you said you've contacted CWGC about this and they are going to be the most appropriate and professional people to look into this case. Hopefully they have the details given by the battalion?

Concentration sheets tend to be connected to individual mens' files but there may be other files/reports with CWGC that are not connected. It is possible to access these but may seem a bit 'techy'. Concentration sheets for men commemorated on Ploegsteert Memorial is a new one on me.

[Marianne]

This is the concentration report. It does name him and use his service number. It gives a location of a grave within the cemetery but this does not exist. 

And as I’ve oreviously mentioned, that map location where  says body found is not the same as the recorded details of the burial from his battalion. 

[Marianne]

This is the batallion log.

[Cheshire22]

Hi Marianne

 

Have you looked at 2584 Pte Heard and 1601 Pte Meadley of the same Battalion who are buired in Strand Military Cemetery, Ploegsteert.  

 

Normally, if a Grave Registration Unit comes across a cross, they dig the grave for the remains but it looks like that a cross was found but no remains were found. 

 

Jamie.

[Marianne]

Hi Jamie, 

 

Thank you for your reply. No I haven’t looked at them. What information would I be looking for? 

 

Thank you again, 

Marianne 

[TEW]

Bit complex this I think. The sheet refers to the 3 men within a memorial plot but gives grave plots which have been altered. Memorial plots aren't usually graves. Sometimes men get reburied but the cemetery then gets re-laid out and somehow graves get lost. Things to look at tomorrow though!

TEW

[Marianne]

Thanks TEW. That’s what I meant about it being confusiing. And the site where they say the cross was is not the site he was buried at according to the battalion log hence why there may have been no remains. 

I have attached the plan for the strand memorial. As you will be able to note, that plot he was allocated doesn’t exist, perhaps because of the lack of remains. 

Hopefully the CWGC will be able to shed some light on the situation. 

Any advice or thoughts really are greatly appreciated. 

Thanks again

[johnboy]

Have you looked for maps showing the refs after 1915 to 1918? These may show movement of the front and /or any shell damage, If ground was fought over after burials it is possible remains were lost, [Scattered ] Found again at a later date with no means of ID and buried with other remains,

[Cheshire22]

7 hours ago, Marianne said:

Hi Jamie, 

 

Thank you for your reply. No I haven’t looked at them. What information would I be looking for? 

 

Thank you again, 

Marianne 

 

It seems to be 2 other members of the same Battalion were original  buried at the same location. 

 

There seems to be an indifference of the plot Row Grave Numbers. 

 

If look at the sub forum which I mentioned in an earlier post and look for a post which explains how to run a report on the Concentration forms for the Strand Military Cemetery 

 

sorry I can’t remember the post details at this moment 

 

looking at the cemetery plan, it seems that plots 1 to 6 were the original cemetery and from plot 7 & so on were brought in from the battlefields