Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Sign in to follow this  
Marianne

Can anyone help with this acronym?

Recommended Posts

laughton

I will collect all the documents and place them here:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/267840-houplines-communal-cemetery-extension/

 

I first must go to the farm and look after the ponies!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marianne

Thank you so much for that Jon. That’s very interesting indeed. I have looked through the battalion log for DLI 9th Battalion as there are a number of casualties from both the 9th and 6th Battalions buried within Ferme Buterne MC. A number of the men buried there were killed around the same time as my Grandfather and in trenches right next to where he was. It would also make a lot of sense with regards to the buried near HQ reference. It might be of no significance whatsoever (I am very much still an amateur at all of this) but some of the burials seem to evidence some chronology. So the two DLI were killed 19.08.15 and 20.09.15 and their graves are 29 and 30 respectively. The two UBS are graves 26 and 27 which if it does follow some sort of chronology would be just before that. My grandfather was killed 13.08.15 and Pte White 09.08.15. Probably not linked but just something I noticed. There is one between that at 15.07.15 at grave 28 so that probably knocks that theory on the head anyway. That will also be interesting to look into the other concentrations you mentioned. Thank you all again, 

Marianne 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya
35 minutes ago, laughton said:

 

I first must go to the farm and look after the ponies!

 

We move in similar circles......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

Looking at the COG-BR documents that are now posted here, shows a large number of UBS buried at 36.I.4.c.3.4, which would suggest that was a burial location. That is close to where Marianne is looking for her grandfather. This is COG-BR 2667298 which appeared when I was looking for the Canadians.

doc2667298.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marianne

Thank you Richard for getting those documents. So there are a number of ‘leads’ to follow.

1. The unknowns on doc2667298.JPG

 

2. The unknown found by Jon 120C11CB-3F44-4323-8A3E-787D4F25F8E4.jpeg.8cb290cf4393948df8e1d12a73f05db6.jpeg

3. The unknowns buried in Ferme Buterne (image attached)  as identified also by Jon. 

4. An unknown DLI (image attached).

 

 

 

Richard I can’t get the third link to open. It says ‘something is missing’ so haven’t checkd that last set. Can anyone give me any advice on where to go from here? The cross is the thing that throws me. Of course I realise that it is possible that there are just simply no remains and he was lost however the reference ‘buried near HQ’ is what continues to give me that little niggle and so feel that I need to explore the possibilities. The location of the cross and ‘no remains’ are not really near to HQ and given the fact that the battalion were withdrawn just hours after his death and made their way back to the Asylum, it just makes me wonder if they took him and buried him further up ‘nearer’ to the HQ as stated in the log. I’ll try and plot these possibilities and the Asylum on a map for reference. 

 

Marianne 

 

 

 

 

3A030245-C6AF-4D04-AAB6-15FE64B6460E.jpeg

6D5C8EC9-D58F-43C2-AF6D-94B2BB5D0A65.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marianne

98E7E08D-AC68-4766-A73A-652917055EAB.jpeg.12b31019b287980c625e51071645d096.jpeg

 

Sorry it’s not great, but gives a bit of an idea. The yellow line indicates the rough position of Trench 74. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya

Marianne, the UBS you've arrowed plus the following UBS were found at a similar location to Pte Smalles DLI, ( I 15 b.6.6). The more you look the more you will see, having looked at  some of the Leinster burials to Houplines, it led me to exhumations carried out during 1927 from C 28 and I 5, these remains along with dozens of others were re-interred at Caberet Rouge BC. Looking further I find cases of Leinsters being exhumed from similar locations during a period 1932-1938, again these remains were re-interred with dozens of others to Canadian Cemetery No.2, Neuville-St. Vaast. Does this represent any form of pattern of which cemeteries remained 'open' during these decades? 

I think I've managed to grab the CoGs for both, I haven't looked through to check if they are complete, also beware how the 'remarks' change as time passes, will post a link if needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton
8 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

Links to MediaFire Zip files for those two cemeteries. We have looked at those in detail a number of times over on this side of the pond. Cabaret Rouge is the site of our "Unknown Soldier" that is now in Ottawa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marianne

Hi everyone,

 

Just a quick update. This is the response to my father from The CWGC - 

 


The burial return you refer to indicates that a memorial cross to your grandfather was found at trench map reference 36.I.5.c.1.5. These memorials were not uncommon on the battlefield, but as no body was found, ultimately his name was added to the appropriate campaign memorial, in this case Ploegsteert. According to our records 18 bodies were recovered from trench map square 36.I.4. after the war.  Most were reburied in Houplines Communal Cemetery Extension or Strand Military Cemetery. None were identifiable as DLI casualties.  I have marked on the attached trench map portion the position of your grandfather's burial location as stated in the war diary (the black cross) and the location of the memorial cross (the blue cross).

I trust you find this useful.
 
Not really sure what to make of it. 

4412E904-D4F2-425A-9160-EB69ACE85FFA.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

What are the red circles - do they say? Areas where they found remains concentrated?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya

They're cemeteries Richard,  27.b.8.3 Houplines/L'Epinette Road, 28.a4.5 Houplines NMC, 28.a.45.10 Houplines CC and 28.c.4.2 Ferme Butterene, I'm sure something similar will bear out for Chapelle D'Armentieres, note the omission Pont Ballot Cemetery at 28.d.8.3, early registration map?

 

Marianne, thank you for the update, not that it brings anything further to the table, we have already identified a further number casualties interred into two further cemeteries from similar locations in the two decades that followed the discovery of your Grandfathers grave marker. I had missed Aurel's post earlier in the thread and of course your Grandfathers grave marker was removed from where it was found by the Graves Registration Team and taken to the Strand Cemetery where it was placed in the Memorial Plot since no body was recovered, looking at some CoG reports the digging to a depth of seven feet is recorded several times. Once the great Memorials to the Missing were unveiled these Memorial Plots which bore no burials and their grave markers were removed, the missing and the unknown burials are commemorated by name on these vast memorials. What we see in the Memorial Plots today are the stones that commemorate the names of men truly believed to be buried under one of the UBS headstones within the cemetery. The explanations and scenarios of what may have happened are many, the truth however will never be known but it brings some comfort does it not that the man who wrote the diary took the time to record the burial by name? There is much literature about the 'Pals' battalions and we sometimes forget that many TF battalions were made up of fellas that worked together, lived on the same street and I do wonder if the diary writer knew George Dent and Henry White. I'm not sure what if anything further can be done here Marianne although I do have a little information from WDs and images which will add some more texture to what you already know. I will endeavour to post them over the next few days as time allows.

Should you not have already seen this, I will post it here, from the Newcastle Daily Journal, Monday 31st August 1915

 

1478531647_GeorgeDentDLI.jpg.8aa4a55c062dc0ac15e25b4cc6509265.jpg

 

A quick search of Pte. Thomas Dent reveals nowt.............Pte. Henry White was a local man, born in Lanchester and died of wounds on the 9th.........so there's a probability that he made it to the RAP (Regimental Aid Post) at least, these were usual situated just behind the front line which goes some way in explaining the location of the grave markers. If you have access to the WDs Marianne and wish to delve further it may be worth looking for mention of these on brigade level and the Divisional Field Ambulance's and especially through appendages.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marianne

Morning, thanks for that. Oh indeed you can gain comfort from the fact that he was buried by his pals. Of the 18 that were mentioned by the CWGC as being found in 36.I.4, nine of those are on the concentration sheet we’ve already looked at. Just wondering how is it known that there aren’t any DLI? Are there further records that would’ve given more specific details? Also, I realise that perhaps this is the end of the road in my search for George, but just wondered if there was still anything further to look at in the case of the Ferme Buturne unknowns. The reference for that cemetery is 36.C.28.c but it is somewhat ‘near’ to the HQ and diary reference. There are a number of DLI already buried there and the chronology of the graves would somewhat fit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya

Marianne, apologies for not returning sooner, I have placed several aerial views of the trenches around Houplines/Armentieres/L'Epinette here along with two diaries that may be of interest. You may also wish to contact the CWGC again to see if there are any further documents that may relate to the cemeteries mentioned but are not available online.

 

Jon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marianne

Hi Jon, 

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to do that. The CWGC sent me details of all of the bodies recovered from 36 I 4 which I have attached. 

Some of them we’ve already found concentration reports for and plotted them on the map but there are also others that I haven’t found yet that I shall look for. Do you know if the records for the Cabaret Rouge Cemetery are available anywhere? 

 

I am still interested in the two unknowns at Ferme Buterne. My dad brought round some amazing finds today - letters and papers relating to George and his brother in law Henry who he was fighting with. There was a Christmas card sent in 1915 as well as photographs. Really brings it home. Thank you again for your help. 

 

Marianne 

DA347906-EC41-4899-A7FE-6899CE00509B.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

 

1 hour ago, Marianne said:

Do you know if the records for the Cabaret Rouge Cemetery are available anywhere? 

 

yes, they are here:

 

Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marianne

Thank you Richard. If on the concentration record of an unknown it says that means of identification was numerals, what is that referring to does anybody know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya

Usually metal shoulder titles which would identify a mans regiment by county or corps and in some cases his battalion, other terms noted for the same are 'titles' and 'S/Ts'.

 

156056071_KingsLiverpoolST.jpg.c1206dc8263b415c436d94fbb6176f53.jpg s-l400.jpg.7c054c61a6e40060a4e337400caa00f5.jpg

 

One thing to bear in mind when you're reading and transferring these map coordinates is that 36c.I.4.a.1.4 relates to a 50 x 50 yard square and so I would advise looking beyond these parameters. I suppose a question you could ask the CWGC would be, if remains were found in or around these two coordinates since 1930 where would they have been re-interred up to present day?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...