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Remembered Today:

Can anyone help with this acronym?


Marianne

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Thank you very much for the replies and for that information Jon. Think I wasn’t very clear about the postcard - apologies. The postcard was sent to my GF out in France and somehow it found it’s way back again. Just wondered if that, along with the fact that we have this dog tag, may have meant that at some point personal effects were sent back and if so, would there be a record of this anywhere? 

Just another little thing in this story that seems odd. 

Could anyone possibly tell me how I can download the CR for the other cemeteries that were mentioned by Jon? 

Finally, can anyone think of any other way to find out about the possible meaning of the notes written on the CR? 

Thank you all again,

Marianne 

35382DE7-2E5C-4090-A0DE-0C2D649D5196.png

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I think it more likely that they were sent back as mentioned in my previous post or a pal brought them back when home on leave, either way I doubt there will be any record anywhere that details this. Have you searched the local newspapers of the time? Did he serve with any other family members?

 

With regards downloading CRs, follow Richards link to a old Firefox version which you will need to download followed by an app called 'down them all',  this will give the ability to batch download from the CWGC cloud.

 

Jon

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Yes, he was there with his brother in law and he is a whole other mystery but he does have a known grave. 

I just wondered if there might be any record which might hold another clue but I think you’re right about them being sent back and probably no trail there. Was just a thought. Thank you for the help. I’ll have a try downloading that later on. Do you think it would be worth starting another thread in a different area to seek any help about the notes in the CR or is this the best place as it is? Still a bit new to all of this :-) 

 

Marianne 

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Perhaps the items were returned by him? I’d be inclined to keep all questions and posts relating to your grandfather here Marianne, it keeps all the relevant information in one place. The notes on the CRs I can only imagine refer to perhaps office ref points but by all means start a separate thread regarding these, however the ditto marks are clear enough for me to believe the ref is the same as that listed above on the CRs

How much of your grandfathers military history do you know? Do you plan on visiting Houplines?

 

Jon

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He probably did. He survived a little longer than my GF. I know quite a bit about his history now and have been to the memorial at Ploegsteert. I plan on going to Houplines/Armentieres with my father next year as he has never been. I think after finding the reference to the burial in the WD and knowing someone had taken the time to give us that clue we wanted to explore the possibilities that either he still lay there somewhere or had a grave somewhere as an unknown. I am relatively new to all of this but it just seems strange to me that the map reference where the cross was found isn't exactly 'near' to the map reference given in the WD. But then why would the cross be there? You just go round in circles with questions and I suppose is the truth is we will never know. I just have to try...

I have managed to get the downloaditall app but the cloud page is just a frozen page that I can do nothing on? 

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All you need to know is here

 

45 minutes ago, Marianne said:

I have managed to get the downloaditall app but the cloud page is just a frozen page that I can do nothing on? 

 

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The method for getting all reports from cwgc is given by Laughton's team at;

http://cefresearch.ca/wiki/index.php/Making_a_GRRF_or_COG-BR_Binder

I found that all the process can be done using Firefox, Chrome not needed. You don't have to 'bind' the reports if you don't want to. Just make sure you have a folder set up to receive all the images. Finding out the filename range of images you want can be the awkward part. See how you get on!

TEW

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Not sure about frozen cloud pages. Unless you have the right Firefox version you can't add downloadthemall to start with.

TEW

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I'm glad Jay posted with the locations for the various cemeteries and has highlighted other burials/concentrations from that area.

I said in a previous post something along the lines of once an area had been covered by a concentration team, that was that. Well, having looked though CRs for Strand & Houplines C C Ext. and GRRFs for both it seems that one team tried to clear the area in Feb 1929 removing remains to Strand and another team removed remains to Houplines C C Ext. in Sept 1920.

There are things that don't make life easy.

  • Some men were exhumed and re-buried at least twice so have multiple CRs & GRRF sheets.
  • Exhumations took place within EG Houplines N M C for re-burial in the same cemetery.
  • Small cemeteries were created for battlefield clearance which were later closed down and the remains removed.
  • Some of the CRs for Houplines seem to have wrong map refs, one says that Houplines Cem. is on sheet 28. The next CR says that bodies were taken from Houpline N M C for reburial in Houpline N M C . Another CR has Map ref where body was found Sheet 26, which I think should be 36.

As to how accurate the map refs are is debatable. You can see groups of men from map ref X in Feb 1920 taken to Strand and then another body almost at map ref X in Sept 1920 taken to Houplines C C Ext.

 

Still no evidence for a GRRF or CR for Houplines C C Ext. with ref 43/c. They only seem to run to 36/c.

TEW

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22 hours ago, TEW said:

It does seem a bit odd that two different teams were concentrating from the battlefield at 36.I.C into two different cemeteries 6 months apart.

 

The CWGC  has told me that placement of remains into various cemeteries was usually a "time sensitive" issue. In any one month, certain cemeteries were open to accept remains from concentrations. In some cases, remains travelled many miles to a cemetery that was "open" even though there may have been many cemeteries in the immediate vicinity of the ongoing exhumations.

 

On the matter of the downloaded reports:

  1. Check first to see if I have downloaded them and put them into ZIP Files here: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/e6csl7gfp5jf8/1._New_Zipped_Files_-_Faster!
  2. I stopped making the PDF versions of the BINDERS long ago, but some still exist if needed: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/ou9xkig4oie4h/2._Older_Binder_Files_-_Slower_PDF
  3. If you need a cemetery ZIPPED that is not in the list, just let me know and I will do it and upload it to the folder. If you know the address for just one (1) COG-BR, send that along as that speeds up the process. Many cemeteries do not have those documents - or have them but they are not in the CWGC system yet.
  4. You need the old Firefox version to make your own collection  - I put a copy here: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/hyg96c7rx28gd/A1_ZIP_%26_UNZIP_PROGRAM_YOU_MAY_NEED
  5. The whole process, as written a few years ago (not updated) is here: http://cefresearch.ca/wiki/index.php/The_Unknown
  6. How I made the binders is referenced there but the direct link is here: http://cefresearch.ca/wiki/index.php/Making_a_GRRF_or_COG-BR_Binder

Any other questions, just ask.

 

Richard

Edited by laughton
added correct program link to #4
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On 27/11/2018 at 09:54, Marianne said:

The question would be how these came to be back in the possession of my great grandmother?

 

There are many, many reports of the dog tags and personal effects being collected by PALS or OTHER UNITS that buried the dead, if there were any tags or effects. That became the confirmation that the person had in fact been killed. They may have made note of where they buried the body, but more often not.

 

From what I have seen in the literature, the early system was one dog tag, not metal. Once it was taken, along with the personal effects, it was taken back to the battalion so a record could be kept. I don't think that there had been much thought given to going back later to recover bodies and move them (concentrate) into new cemeteries.

 

As I understand it, it was not until WWII that a better system was put in place, with two (2) tags, one of which was always left on the body.

 

Many, many identification errors can probably been traced to "buried in a waterproof sheet marked X". Spoons and knives marked "X" probably were a close second. The more common effects that appear to work were signet rings and personal letters.

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The dog tag is a private purchase one not an army issue one. A treasure for sure. However, assuming the tag and postcard are linked in some way could cloud the issue. Perhaps he was home on leave at some point and had another made and left one behind or made do with army issue ones.

Perhaps he did wear it with army issue ones and this one was removed in the way Richard describes. I guess personal items like this are supposed to go through a proper procedure and maybe these ones did. Not unusual for a CO, officer or pal to write a letter to the NOK and maybe send back the tag, postcard or both.

TEW

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Either way, a treasure to have like you say TEW. I’m pretty sure he didn’t come home on leave so the most likely scenario is that his brother in law collected them and sent them back somehow. Was just a thought about if there was possibly and record of the personal effects but I appreciate that this is not likely. Like I say, just a thought. 

Going by what Richard said, the concentrations could have gone anywhere at that time. Are there any other Houplines cemeteries that could be worth checking? TEW do you think the 43/c relates to cemetery organization? 

 

 

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You do quite often see lists of personal items returned to NOK. These would be in service files which is missing in this case. NOK had to sign a receipt and return it by post. Not sure how normal it is for a dog tag to be included but it was a private purchase so not army property.

Still looking for 43/c.

TEW

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On 27/11/2018 at 12:00, jay dubaya said:

Added to the 'Unknown' buried in The Strand that Richard has pointed out there is another 'Unknown' buried in Houplines New Military Cemetery, now Houplines Communal Cemetery Extension, this body was recovered from I 5 c.6.3.

I'll attach here the map refs from IWGC for these cemeteries, it doesn't add anything but they may be of use...

 

Houplines Communal Cemetery (36c) 28 a.45.10

Houplines L'Epinette Road Cemetery 27 b.8.3

Houplines New Military Cemetery 28 a 4.5

Houplines Old Military Cemetery 21 b.8

 

From this I presume that someone has already downloaded the files for these cemeteries? If so, can we share the location, or at least the number ranges? No use duplicating efforts.

Thx, Richard

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Hi Richard, I haven’t managed to download the files. I am trying to teach myself how to do it. If anyone has them already that would be great if you could share.

 

Marianne 

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Richard,

I think I have those sheets and can give the details tomorrow. I may well have a few queries to add regarding Report numbers, Schedule numbers and CWGC hosting/file numbering system.

TEW

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Richard,

Strand, Ploegsteert Concentrations. doc2154608.JPG - doc2154800.JPG mainly from Sheet 28 area. Includes;

Concentrations from Le Bizet Convent MC 36.C.14.a.40.65. (and some odd battlefield casualties) into Strand are doc2154656.JPG - doc2154673.JPG

Concentrations from L'Epinette Rd, Houplines 36.C.27.b.8.3 to Strand are doc215761.JPG - doc2154762.JPG

 

Concentrations into Houplines New MC 36.C.28.a.4.5. are doc2667307.JPG - doc2667341.JPG. This sequence continues to doc2667430.JPG. but as Houplines Communal Cemetery Extension with 2 maps refs given! 36.C.28.a.45.50 & 36.C.28.a.4.2. Some of these sheets place Houplines New MC on sheet 28! This range includes battlefield clearance plus previous concentrations from;
Plot 2 Houplines New MC
Rue Marle 36.I.9.b.30.25
Ferme Philippeaux BC 36.C.22.a.7.9.
Houplines Communal Cemetery
Houplines Old MC 36.C.21.b.8.2
For some unknown reason this range also includes headstone schedules for Le Touret MC!

 

GRRFs for Houplines Communal Cemetery Extension are doc2781608.JPG - doc2781643.JPG. This is all Report No. 17 schedules 1/c - 36/c. NB some of these sheets are marked as Exhumations or Concentrations.

 

Then another batch of GRRFs doc2013233.JPG - doc2013247.JPG. These are for Houplines Communal Cemetery & Houplines Old MC and again some sheets are marked as concentrations. These have Report 16 schedules 1/c - 9/c & Report 19 schedules 1/c - 5/c.


Any idea what happened to Report No. 18.?

Why do CWGC split up the paperwork for one cemetery into differing number ranges, makes life difficult to find them and how do we know there aren't others somewhere?

Why Le Touret MC headstone reports mixed with Concentrations for Houplines?

 

Incidently, I've just tried to get downloadthemall and it seems Firefox are no longer offering it as an add-on

TEW

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9 hours ago, TEW said:

Incidently, I've just tried to get downloadthemall and it seems Firefox are no longer offering it as an add-on

 

Thanks, I will use that as guidance to get all the files over the weekend.

 

But for you question at the end,see post #61 above. You have to delete / destroy the upgrade and install the old FireFox and all will be back to normal. SET IT SO IT NEVER UPGRADES. I looked at all the alternatives, there are none better than the old version, at least not for now.

 

Richard

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Marianne, in the valiant attempt to clear the battlefields perhaps we are reminded of the chaos they faced when we attempt to analyse these documents. The article here gives us some insight into the mammoth task that still endures to this day. Research (2012) has shown that there are 587989 British soldiers from the Great War buried in named graves and there are 526816 names carved on the Memorials to the Missing. There are 187861 unnamed burials, therefore 338955 souls are not buried at all (note that this figure includes those lost at sea), a staggering number that have as yet and for the main simply disappeared. 

I was drawn back to CoG 2154697  as I believe the map ref is an I, a J wouldn't make sense, having checked the WDs for the 1st WY and 17th/18th Inf Bdes which puts the battalion in the right place for burials at that map ref.  The following map is taken from the 17th Inf Bdes WD and given that the location of the Bde HQ on Plank Ave. is at 36 I 4 b.3.6 the distance to the cemetery at Ferme Buterne is a fraction of the distance form I 5 c.1.5 and is somewhat 'near HQ'?  sheet 36 I 28 - C4

Two more UBS at Ferme Buterne MC, the 2 DLI men are 1/6th Btn. I cannot find any CRs for this cemetery and can we assume that these two UBS may not have been re-interred and may not have been exhumed for any means of ID? So why no crosses?

From the IWGC cemetery list has anyone identified where Grande Porte-Egal Farm Cemetery (Houlines) 36 I 10 b.5.6 and Pont Ballot Farm Cemetery (Houplines) 36 C 28 d.8.3 were concentrated to?  I shall have a guess at Houplines CCE but I haven't as yet checked the map refs against the cemetery returns.  

 

Jon                                     

 

 

Edited by jay dubaya
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7 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

ps Firefox V45 seems to work best for me 

 

Then I think as long as you already have V 56 or lower and I assume downloadthemall has already been added then existing users may be OK. Hope DLTA continues to work.

 

Richard, the problem is not with the versions of Firefox. The problem is that downloadthemall has been discontinued by Mozilla, it is not available on their website. They have removed the signing for the add-on. I have just been trying to use Nightly versions of DLTA with Firefox versions 45 - 56 and they are all blocked by Mozilla.

I have just given up following instructions to change firefox preferences to allow un-signed add-ons

TEW

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