Ww1 maybe cavalry Finding the man who didn’t want to be found HELP :)

[pierssc]

McKay - McHaye?

[Gunga Din]

4 minutes ago, pierssc said:

McKay - McHaye?

 

 Yes my thoughts too.... Shoeing Smith.

 

Alas no BWM under Cavalry. 

 

 

Edited 6 November , 2018 by Gunga Din

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, pierssc said:

McKay - McHaye?

It would mean that he had dropped rank by the time the pictures were taken.

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

#4181 McKay was Robert McKay of Stonehaven  - he'd served since 1897.

 

Craig

[MrMachaye]

Our understanding we know he was badly hurt in ww1 and if you were hospitalised for longer than 6 weeks your ranks were stripped for cheaper pay I don’t know if this is true 

[Gunga Din]

8 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It would mean that he had dropped rank by the time the pictures were taken.

 

Craig

 

The 1914 Star roll reflects ranks at the time of disembarkation so could very easily have been a Shoeing Smith and then subsequently been promoted. Mounted photos (Cpl) is likely 1920 methinks. 

 

Edit. I see McKay is eliminated on enlistment date. 

 

GD

 

Edited 6 November , 2018 by Gunga Din

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, Gunga Din said:

 

The 1914 Star roll reflects ranks at the time of disembarkation so could very easily have been a Shoeing Smith and then subsequently been promoted. Mounted photos (Cpl) is likely 1920 methinks. 

 

GD

 

He was appointed Acting S.S. Corporal in Oct 1914 and Substantive in April 1915. Looks like rank was reverted at own request on 1916.

 

Craig

[MrMachaye]

You guys have been amazing so far if we actually manage to crack this beer tokens all around and those able to get to the Norfolk tank museum I can promise a once in a life time experience FOC. 

 

Nothing adds up 

He lived and had children with my great nan for years and didn’t marry her until the 60s proven above to be 1966 I am guessing there must be. Marriage before making sense to why they married very late marriage name machay

 

he had 3 children with Stella but they had mchaye as their surname as far I as see 

brain Alec and jean 

 

he passed away 1974 in south Norfolk but his as you lot pointed he said he date of birth to be 1900 but he seemed to change that like the weather but normally kept the 9/10 the same 

but I find out online death cirt can’t be held as factual information 

mans my dad always knew he was older than he said and the 1893 date makes sense with the pre war photo

he was know as Alec and is that on his death cirt which is different than marriage etc 

 

stella Britnell 100% was born in 1909 in July 

 

his sons brain is alive Alec passed away last week and jean I believe she’s alive I think 

 

 

[corisande]

Why did he wait till 1966 to marry Stella?

 

I have researched a great many WW1 veterans, and many just did not go back to their first wife and family. However if they remarried then they could be tried for bigamy , many were.

 

divorce was difficult for a working class man. So they waited till the first wife died to remarry. This could be what happened here

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, corisande said:

Why did he wait till 1966 to marry Stella?

 

I have researched a great many WW1 veterans, and many just did not go back to their first wife and family. However if they remarried then they could be tried for bigamy , many were.

 

divorce was difficult for a working class man. So they waited till the first wife died to remarry. This could be what happened here

It is odd, something must have triggered the marriage.

 

Craig

[corisande]

I think that there is a reasonable chance that he found that his first wife was dead

[MrMachaye]

27 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

The 2 names that brought up is someone to see if there is death cirts for them? 

If one could be him there would be no recorded death? Like we have no recorded birth for his name we know? 

 

Or how do I do these? I have no idea how you guys have found all this information so far 

[ss002d6252]

5 minutes ago, MrMachaye said:

The 2 names that brought up is someone to see if there is death cirts for them? 

If one could be him there would be no recorded death? Like we have no recorded birth for his name we know? 

  

Or how do I do these? I have no idea how you guys have found all this information so far 

I can see a death for Munnoch but not for Jones - Jones could have died outside of Scotland however.

 

Craig

[corisande]

Going back to basics, I would suggest that we look at Ancestry trees

 

I have no idea if it belongs to the OP, but there is a very detailed tree for the subject of this thread there

 

It is all over the place with the birth in 1898, census records for 1901, a MIC that shows him Kia during the war, then joining the Black and Tans (he did produce a birth cert for 19 Oct 1900), then dead in Scotland. It is difficult to separate fact from fiction, but somebody must believe in it!

[MrMachaye]

Yes my Nan was trying to research online using a website but she’s a computer friendly as a bucket of water. 

 

Where did you guys get all this information from I think i need to join these websites 

[Gunga Din]

Ok... I knew something was not quite right.... the first photo is the 21st Empres of India's Lancers. The 12th Lancers wore blue tunics with red facings and a full red plastron.... the 21st Empress of India's wore a blue tunic with a French Grey plastron

 

http://www.uniformology.com/LANCERS-09.html

 

 

Their collar badges are very similar.

 

So, if he was 21st Empress of India's lancers in 1914 it opens other options. 

1. He may have transferred from 21st lancers to 12th Lancers pre war

2. He may have been in the Army reserve and mobilized. With the 21st Lancers in India at the time he would have been posted to wherever the Cavalry needed men. Still cap-badged 21st Lancers but attached to another regiment -  I would make a strong guess 12th lancers. Note also that 2nd Life Guards for example were mostly Lancer Reservists. 

3. He would certainly have had a Corps of Lancers number. 

 

Edit 21st Empress of India's Lancers was in Dublin during the 1911 Census....posted to India in 1912 where it remained to the start of the War and remained throughout the War. One Service Squadron served in France as VIV Corps cavalry from 1916.

Edited 6 November , 2018 by Gunga Din

[ss002d6252]

I don't think he was old enough to have been a recalled reservist unless he was on some form of short term enlistment rather than the 7&5 enlistment but as to the rest it sounds promising.

Craig

[MrMachaye]

Can all the information be found on ansetry? Then just a case of trying to put things together to make sense?

[Gunga Din]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

I don't think he was old enough to have been a recalled reservist unless he was on some form of short term enlistment rather than the 7&5 enlistment but as to the rest it sounds promising.

Craig

 

A good point.  The annual returns don't show line cavalry in 1910 under any terms other than 7 years with the colours. If he was a Reservists he would have had to enlist before Aug 1908 i.e before he was 15 years old. So, either he... 

 

1. He transferred (probably to 12th Lancers) prior to 21st Lancers departing for India....or

2. He was one of many India based regulars to be sent back to UK to supplement the reinforcement chain.... In this scenario I would be looking at the 1914-15 Star medal roll given the narrow time-frame. 

 

GD

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, MrMachaye said:

Can all the information be found on ansetry? Then just a case of trying to put things together to make sense?

FindMyPast, Ancestry, ScotlandsPeople and FreeBMD are sites I have looked at - documentary information is spread between them but a lot of information comes from years of collective knowledge.

 

Craig

[Gunga Din]

5 minutes ago, MrMachaye said:

Can all the information be found on ansetry? Then just a case of trying to put things together to make sense?

 

You need a name or a number and preferably both. We have neither other than the strong possibility he served in the 12th lancers through the war. That leaves around 2,000 named individuals on the 1914 Star medal roll, 1914-15 Star medal roll and BWM & VM rolls with no other guidance than the fact we are assuming (maybe incorrectly) that he used his real forenames  when serving under an different surname. If this assumption is incorrect, it means our guesswork will be way out. If he used a different forename, he could be almsot any of the 2,000 odd men - the only potential reduction in the size of the haystack would be to elimitae SNCOs and above.. whci would leave about 1,800 potentail candidates, a large proportion of whom have no Service Records or Pension Records. 

 

One large haystack and not much to reduce the options. 

 

I would suggest looking at the 21st Lancers' 1911 Census and 12th Lancers' 1911 Census as these will be significantly more narrow bases. It is a near certainty that he was serving in 1911 and therefore will be on the Military Census. 

 

GD

Edited 6 November , 2018 by Gunga Din

[MrMachaye]

Can I find military census on anastry? 

[ss002d6252]

The 1911 census is a long shot but... The details of actively serving soldiers were included in the 1911 census that is available on Ancestry.
 

Craig

[johnboy]

In the second pic has he got crossed machine guns or clubs  badge on his sleeve? 

[corisande]

Put "military " as required keyword in 1911 census. But it depends very much what name you search for