Ww1 maybe cavalry Finding the man who didn’t want to be found HELP :)

[ss002d6252]

8 minutes ago, johnboy said:

In the second pic has he got crossed machine guns or clubs  badge on his sleeve? 

I think it's a Marksman proficiency badge - crossed rifles

 

Craig

[Gunga Din]

24 minutes ago, MrMachaye said:

Can I find military census on anastry? 

 

I assume you mean Ancestry..... It  has Census data for England, Wales and the Colonies., but due to the appalling indexing it is extremely difficult to find the Military Census within this - it is buried within the list of Counties in the England Census 1911 as 'Military'...however tis will not get you any further as you have to enter some data. The search function requires that you enter some known (personal) details on your subject. You can't successfully search key word "12th Lancers" - it only generates a few retired soldiers and some at the Depot and suggests (I think) the 12th Lancers was not in England in 1911....so you need to first need to establish where the 12th lancers were....find the Census for that place and plod through until you find the Military section for that particular place. It is often a very time-consuming process. 

 

I don't believe Ancestry has Census data for Ireland (modern Eire) which you would need to check for the 21st Lancers.. There are other sources for the Irish Census but I don't recall exactly. Try googling....

 

I think your target area is about 1,000 strong: JNCOs or below in the 1911 Census in these two Regiments. Failing that, about 3,500 in the 1914 Star and failing that a similar number in the 1914-15 Star. If that fails I would suggest the effort/reward payoff is simply too skewed to make it worthwhile. 

 

One tiny shard of personal info would reduce the odds considerably.

 

GD

Edited 6 November , 2018 by Gunga Din

[ss002d6252]

By the pictures he gained his 2nd wound stripe after his medal ribbons were issued - I didn't think this was until 1919 or so for the set. Where the 12th lancers in action somewhere in late 1919 onwards (up until whatever date they stopped issuing them).

 

Wikipedia suggests they were in the Punjab before moving to Norwich pre-1914 - as to when exactly though...

 

21st Lancers were also in India pre-war and throughout so when did he move between the two...

 

Craig

Edited 6 November , 2018 by ss002d6252

[MrMachaye]

My dads just so keen to find out who is was etc etc 

my dad museum is the Norfolk tank museum of all things he collected over the years webbings all the way up to 60 tonne battle tanks etc 

project managed and built the ww1 guy martain tank here in our museum 

 

dads done so much over years raising money and making sure history is  preserved it all started when his grandfather gave him some webbing and a pistol holster when he was 10years old just before he died 

 

he just wants to know who is was and what he did etc 

But he went so far out of his way to try and make him self almost disappear 

[corisande]

1.Ireland 1911 census is free online.But I cannot get anything likely in it

 

2.Wound stripes looks a good clue, post 1919 perhaps Russia or Ireland (maybe others)

[Gunga Din]

2 minutes ago, MrMachaye said:

he just wants to know who is was and what he did etc 

 

Family histories are often complex and stories get distorted as they get passed down over the years.

 

Experience in researching individuals suggest that there is often a very strong reason why someone would want to bury their past. These reasons are occasionally not particularly positive. You intimated that he was very successful at obliterating any evidence of his names on the photos, suggesting he wanted to erase his name from the photographic evidence. There will be a reason for this and there is potential for this to be unpalatable. If one searches for the unknown, one needs to be prepared for the unexpected.  For example, some Service Records reveal men who were convicted for avoiding acknowledging illegitimate children, or leaving their wives by enlisting under false names (as just two of many scenarios).

 

My instincts tell me that the catalysts was post war, given he clearly did not forfeit his medals. The unusual factors are his change of identity and his very late marriage. There is a risk that the two are related and Corisande is on the money. 

 

GD

[MrMachaye]

he Would rather the unexpected rather than the unknown 

nan said he kept his medals until the 70s before he died he sold them 

1 week before gt nan died she found the engery to burn everything all paper work everything! 

 

They really went to every level to hide them selfs 

[ss002d6252]

6 minutes ago, MrMachaye said:

he Would rather the unexpected rather than the unknown 

nan said he kept his medals until the 70s before he died he sold them 

1 week before gt nan died she found the engery to burn everything all paper work everything! 

  

They really went to every level to hide them selfs  

It's a pity - even the service number would have solved most of the issues- but at least you have he collective minds of hundreds of years of experience to help try and tie something down.

 

Craig

[Gunga Din]

10 minutes ago, MrMachaye said:

he Would rather the unexpected rather than the unknown 

nan said he kept his medals until the 70s before he died he sold them 

1 week before gt nan died she found the engery to burn everything all paper work everything! 

 

They really went to every level to hide them selfs 

 

If it matters that much I would be tearing through the attic or the cellar and every box tucked away. Psychologists will tell you that when people try to bury the past, they generally can't; they always leave something. Burning records suggests something serious - some form of conviction?. have you trawled the Inverness Court records 1920-1930? 

 

We could map the Census data and medal roll data and I still think you would have 20 odd candidates. Even with just 2 candidates you will never know, which is why I would reiterate that you need to find just one more piece of this jigsaw. You are only one data fragment away from a breakthrough. 

 

Edit. Could he have served in WWII? Black Watch Home Guard? Aged late 40s....A potential line of enquiry. 

 

 

 

GD

Edited 6 November , 2018 by Gunga Din

[ss002d6252]

27 minutes ago, corisande said:

1.Ireland 1911 census is free online.But I cannot get anything likely in it

  

2.Wound stripes looks a good clue, post 1919 perhaps Russia or Ireland (maybe others)

I think if we could get a handle of 2) it would cut down the number of possibilities.

 

Paul's site would also suggest we're looking a service number less than 5XXX so probably something in the range of 3XXX to 5XXX for his original Lancers number.
http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/03/queens-kings-regulations-regimental.html

 

I wonder of the change from 21st Lancers to 12th Lancers was down to being wounded -  we know his second wounding would have been late on, based on the second wound stripe, but the first could have been any time.

 

Craig

Edited 6 November , 2018 by ss002d6252

[johnboy]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

I think it's a Marksman proficiency badge - crossed rifles

 

Craig

Thanks Craig

[MrMachaye]

Again thank you so much for all your help so far, 

service numbers you said it should in theory start with a 3 

Noticed on the back of 2 of his photos is 2312

could this mean anything?  

[ss002d6252]

58 minutes ago, MrMachaye said:

Again thank you so much for all your help so far, 

service numbers you said it should in theory start with a 3 

Noticed on the back of 2 of his photos is 2312

could this mean anything?  

#2312 wouldn't be outside of the realm of possibility - #3XXX was just a rough estimation.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Starter for 10..

 

There is a medical record for a #2312 J C Boyle of 12th Lancers.
 

In July 17 a hospital record states that he was aged 25. At that point he had 7 years service of which 29 months were in the field.

 

I can't see an obvious medal record though - which would be a killer.

 

Craig

Edited 6 November , 2018 by ss002d6252

[MrMachaye]

Okay well we got a wound stripe on his name 

but in 1917 he would have been 24 are ages 100% on these cards

 

7 years service would make the  chevrons for good contact on his sleeve correct 

Boyle is a Scottish name as well....

[MrMachaye]

Recapping what i’ve Learnt so far 7 years service in 1917 we would be on the 1911 census? 

[Mark1959]

MIC for 2313 James Boyle, 12th Lancers. 14 Star trio. 1914 Roll under 2313 says to Devonshire Regiment Sept 1917 as 31120. 

B Reserve 28/2/19 on War and Victory Roll. Under Devons number. Shows 1st Devons.

looks doubtful as number does not match.

Edited 6 November , 2018 by Mark1959

[ss002d6252]

9 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

MIC for 2313 James Boyle, 12th Lancers. 14 Star trio. 1914 Roll under 2313 says to Devonshire Regiment Sept 1917 as 31120. 

B Reserve 28/2/19 on War and Victory Roll. Under Devons number. Shows 1st Devons.

looks doubtful as number does not match.

Confirms my own doubts  - too many things don't fit for it to be him from that.

Craig

[corisande]

Mr Machaye

 

Which are the  two photos with  2312 on the back?

Edited 7 November , 2018 by corisande

[helpjpl]

The last 2 columns on a marriage certificate record the Name and the Rank or Profession of the bride and the groom's father:

 

 

It may be helpful to see what was put on Alex R Machay's marriage certificate:

 

 

You can order a copy for £9.25:

https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate

 

JP

 

Edited 7 November , 2018 by helpjpl

[Gunga Din]

An example of a 21st lancers transferred to the 12th Lancers (almost certainly an Army Reservist - aged 40 when he died) who was killed in 1916

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/252309/phillips,-alfred/

 

He appears on the 12th Lancers' 1914 Star roll having disembarked on 15th  Sep 1914. A neat example of how Reservists whose 'parent' unit was still overseas were used to fill the ranks of other Regiments within the Corps of Lancers. Interestingly the roll makes no reference to his prior unit - the medal records have essentially anonymised his prior regiment. This would reinforce the idea that the subject of the OP may well be buried within the 12th Lancers medal data. 

 

The CWGC data reveals more 21st Lancers who died serving with other Lancer Regiments. Not all the CWGC records accurately reflect the original regiments as some appear on other regiments' medal rolls and this is not reflected in CWGC data.

 

Of the 81 all ranks of the 21st Lancers who died during the war only 11 Other Ranks died whilst serving in France & Belgium. An assumption on the cavalry fatality ratios (10%?) might suggest a rather small pool of potential candidates of around 100-110.

 

GD

[Gunga Din]

 

Reserve Cavalry Regiments. In Aug 1914 a number of Reserve Cavalry Regiments were formed from the surplus Reservists. Line Cavalry regiments were 'paired'; the 21st Lancers were 'paired' with the 9th Lancers in the 7th Reserve Cavalry Regt (RCR). Recovered wounded men from either regiment would be recycled through their RCR to one or other of these regiments. In this instance as the 21st Lancers were in India throughout, surplus 21st Lancer men would typically be sent to the 9th Lancers (CWGC data bears this out to a certain extent with at least 3 examples).

 

In early 1917 the 7th RCR was consolidated with the other Lancer RCRs (6th, 7th and 8th)  to form the new 1st Reserve Cavalry Regiment. It essentially consolidated all Lancers and provided reinforcements for all Lancer regiments. Given the subject ended up in the 12th Lancers, I suspect he went through the 1st Reserve Cavalry Regt sometime after early 1917. It would seem to be the neatest explanation. 

 

GD

 

[MrMachaye]

by the time he was married in 1966 he was a  successful businessman in Canvey Island running a r Machaye’s and son ltd 

by the time he was married in 1966 he was a  successful businessman in Canvey Island running a r Machaye’s and son ltd 

Would that still be on this marriage certificate?

[MrMachaye]

[helpjpl]

1 hour ago, MrMachaye said:

by the time he was married in 1966 he was a  successful businessman in Canvey Island running a r Machaye’s and son ltd 

Would that still be on this marriage certificate?

 

The groom is asked for his occupation when he marries.

The groom is also asked for his Father's Name and Surname and his Father's Rank or Profession - see last 2 columns on marriage certificate. 

 

If Alex R Machay knew the name of his father and gave the correct information when he married in 1966 then we can look for Alex and his father on Census Forms, Birth Register/Baptism etc. If this leads to Alex's real name we can then look for his WW1 Medal Index Card.

 

JP

 

Edited 7 November , 2018 by helpjpl