Ww1 maybe cavalry Finding the man who didn’t want to be found HELP :)

[MrMachaye]

Trying to research my great grandfather. 

Help and advise would be greatly appreciated

beer tokens available!

 

So a little background on him. 

He changed his name so we don’t even know his name before the 40s 

the name we know is Richard Alec Machaye 

the E on the end was added in the 60s 

he didn’t marry until the late 60s but can’t find any record of this, because of the name change we can find this date of birth he destroyed all record of him self other than these pictures

his name was crossed out so much it tore the pictures but they are 100% him 

 

what information do these pictures hold and could they narrow down to regiment he served with? When it’s a case of narrowing out people who served with that regiment then hopefully we will be left with a name hopefully his! 

 

He he told us he served with blackwatch he’s a Scottish born chap but I believe this to be a lancers uniform so that’s not the case. 

 

 

Edited 6 November , 2018 by MrMachaye

[ss002d6252]

No expert on uniforms but...

 

Picture 3 shows 2 wound stripes and 2 long service/good conduct chevrons. Picture 4 shows 1 stripe and 2 long service/good conduct chevrons.

 

This would suggest that second wounding took place during of after his 6th year of service (assuming he did not forfeit any chevrons).

 

The curious aspect is that he is wearing his medal ribbons in both pictures so those pictures, and the second wound stripe, must have occurred after all the medal ribbons were issued - circa 1919 onwards. He has a full set of medals - this indicates that he went overseas before 31 Dec 1915.

 

You could be looking back to an enlistment in 1913 or earlier - depending on the exact time lime of the pictures.

 

The shoulder title could be 12th Royal Lancers - the dress uniform in picture 1 would also fit with cavalry (pre-war dress uniform ?).

 

Craig

Edited 6 November , 2018 by ss002d6252

[Heid the Ba]

Looks like XIIRL to me, and the collar badges would seem to agree.

[ss002d6252]

 

Quote

He he told us he served with blackwatch he’s a Scottish born chap but I believe this to be a lancers uniform so that’s not the case.  

It's possible but might need to be prior to the cavalry - an expert may be able to tell is the dress uniform was issued during the war or not. If it wasn't then it suggests that for the period of the war he served only with the cavalry.

 

I would suggest editing the title to include 'cavalry' for a better response.

 

Quote

he didn’t marry until the late 60s but can’t find any record of this, because of the name change we can find this date of birth he destroyed all record of him self other than these pictures 

Who did he marry ? Any idea where ?

 

Craig

Edited 6 November , 2018 by ss002d6252

[Heid the Ba]

All the badges look like lancers to me, there is nothing to suggest Black Watch in any of the photos.

Any idea where he was born or died?

[Gunga Din]

The Full Dress uniform looks like a pre-war photo. No medals. It is worth noting that Full Dress was essentially stopped (with very few exceptions) during the Great War. If this is correct (happy to be corrected) this means he is likely to have served pre-war  and still be serving in 1920-1921 (?) when the last campaign medals were issued. Note the Lancers' BWM roll was dated (stamped) May 1920 and Apr 1921.....so the good news seems to suggest he will be on the Lancers' rolls. The caveat is that he transferred out to another unit then transferred back. Unusual but possible.

 

Now the bad news (assuming you have no more information):

 

1. Cavalry numbering is very tricky. After 1906 a man enlisting in the Lancers was issued a Corps of Lancers Army Number. Anyone already in a Lancers Regt would maintain his 'regimental' Army Number unless he was transferred to another Lancer Regt when he would be issued with a Corps of Lancers number.... so there are a number of scenarios. Either way, it looks as if he served with the XII Lancers throughout from the pre-war and post war photos.... so regardless of whether he had a Regimental Army Number or a Corps of Lancers Army Number, he would most likely have retained the same number on all the rolls. 

 

2. The 1914 Star for the XII Lancers runs to just under 800 names. The 1914-15 Star runs to just over 200. So the sweet spot is around 1,000 individuals given he has a trio. If he was a pre-war soldier I would lean towards him being on the 1914 Star roll as the XII Lancers went to France in Aug 1914...at least that is where I would start looking.

 

3. The BWM & VM Rolls for the Lancers are quite messy. Very messy in fact... There are essentially two rolls, one for Corps of Lancers and one for Lancer Regiments (the men who had regimental numbers rather than Corps of Lancers numbers). The former runs to 338 pages at about 17 - 18 names per page = roughly 5,700 - 6,000 individuals. Most men have their Regiment annotated ...the latter runs to 365 pages (ditto) = roughly 6,200 - 6,600... combined around 11,900 -  12,600 across 6 regular regiments and 6 Yeomanry Regiments designated as Lancers, however the Yeomanry were mostly converted to Infantry and will mostly appear on the Line Infantry rolls for the BWM.  The BWM rolls are consequently dominated by the regular lancers suggesting around 2,000 odd men per regiment of whom we know around 1,600 will also be on the 1914 Star or 1914-15 Star, thereby eliminating 400 or so. In theory.

 

4. Challenges. The BWN roll shows some men who served in the Lancers, transferred to the Infantry (or other arms, including Corps of Hussars and Corps of Dragoons) and later transferred back to the Lancers. Unusually, the BWM rolls appear to show men in this category to have been re-issued their original Lancer number (even after transferring to other Lancer regiments) - which challenges some deep rooted beliefs that Army Numbers were only issued once. Example (BWM roll)

 

Pte Arthur J Wilson:

9L/3642 Pte 9th Lancers

L11511 Pte R W Surrey Regt

9L/3642 Pte 21st Lancers

 

5. Even if you can find a Lancer who transferred to the Black Watch (incidentally it had two battalions manned by ex Yeomanry (Cavalry)) and then transferred back, you will need another data point to corroborate this is your man.

 

6. One wild suggestion: try and trace the XII Lancers 1911 Census. The Census usually recorded names and place of birth...it might well throw up some Scotsmen in the regiment. There will not be many. The caveat of course is that if he joined after Apr 1911 he will not be on this, but at least worth trawling even if simply to eliminate possibilities. 

 

The haystack is large - given we don't have a name or an Army Number - but not insurmountable.  I would start with the 1911 Census to find Scotsmen in the XII Lancers, then  cross reference to the 1914 Star medal roll and focus on men with the same initials in the hope he at least retained his original first name(s).

 

Good luck.

 

GD

 

 

Edited 7 November , 2018 by Gunga Din

[Mark1959]

One thing I have found over the year that people using aliases by and large do not muck about with their Christian names too much. So just looking at Richards or Richard As in the 12th Lancers would be a good place to start

[MrMachaye]

Thank you, for the replies so far I really appreciate taking the time to help me. 

 

He Married my great nan her name was Stella Britnell my dad thinks it was 1967 or could have been 65 but I guess could be anytime in the 60s  but we can’t find any evidence or where or even certificate but maybe we are looking in the wrong place. 

 

We believe he was born around Inverness area he died in south Norfolk and buried in Norwich but could actually find a death certificate.  

 

 

[Mark1959]

Marriage Reg. Stella Britnell to Alex R Machay. Westminster 1Q 1966. Did she die in Norfolk 1995. If so DoB is 29/7/09. Sound right?

Edited 6 November , 2018 by Mark1959

[ss002d6252]

Marriage as Alex R

 

Craig

[corisande]

No it's to Alex R Machay

[Mark1959]

An Alec Richard MacHaye born 9/10/1900 died in same registration district of Norfolk as Stella in 1Q 1974. 

Edited 6 November , 2018 by Mark1959

[MrMachaye]

yes she died in 1995! 

 

 

[corisande]

The pair are in 1939 Register. He gives dob in that as 9 Oct 1893

[Mark1959]

1 minute ago, corisande said:

The pair are in 1939 Register. He gives dob in that as 9 Oct 1893

That sounds more sensible given the pictures

[ss002d6252]

5 minutes ago, corisande said:

The pair are in 1939 Register. He gives dob in that as 9 Oct 1893

Which sounds far better from a man enlisting pre-war circa 1913 or slightly before - would be 19 or so at the time.

 

Craig

Edited 6 November , 2018 by ss002d6252

[ss002d6252]

Long shots:
 

Only Richard Alexander for 1893 is Scotland is

And as Alexander Richard

 

Craig

[Mark1959]

12 minutes ago, corisande said:

The pair are in 1939 Register. He gives dob in that as 9 Oct 1893

Where are they living

I can find a correctly named pair in Canvey Island - his dob is 1901 and hers 1913 - same days -  as above. Very Odd.  

[corisande]

He also married Ivy Tunmore in Norfolk in 1955 :-)

 

my my feeling is that this was not his first marriage either

 

can someone check if she died

 

 

[MrMachaye]

That’s his son he married ivy 

[corisande]

So have you his son's dob and who was his mother

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, corisande said:

So have you his son's dob and who was his mother

This one I assume.

 

 

 

 

Craig

Edited 6 November , 2018 by ss002d6252

[corisande]

Silly me

 

do we conclude that he was living with Stella for years, but only married her in 1966

 

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, corisande said:

Silly me

 

do we conclude that he was living with Stella for years, but only married her in 1966

 

Looks like it to me.

 

Craig

[Gunga Din]

1914 Star Medal Roll for XII Lancers showing men with forename beginning with "R" and beginning with " R A". Sorted by Army Number

 

Thoughts:

1.  If he was born in 1893 and enlisted aged 17 he could have enlisted starting 1910....meaning he would have been Corps of Hussars rather than have a Regimental number. Unfortunately the roll does not annotate the Corps numbers.

2. Sgt Casey can probably be eliminated based on Rank.

3. Cross referencing these against the BWM and MICs should reveal full forename(s) for example 3515 R A Robinson is Robert A Robinson. The voids should also flag those who did not make it to the end with the XII Lancers, further reducing the size of the haystack. 

 

Army Number	Initials	Surname	Rank
765	R	ASHER	Pte
837	R	FISHER	Pte
1219	R	WHELAN	Pte
1592	R	HUNTER	Pte
1931	R	NUTLEY	L/Cpl
1941	R	NIGHTINGALE	L/Cpl
3864	R	SCOTT	Pte
4087	R	HEARN	Pte
4181	R	MCKAY	SS
4241	R	JAMES	Pte
4328	R	OWEN	Pte
4332	R	FRYER	Pte
4624	R	LUCAS	Pte
4753	R	LAWS	Pte
5642	R	IRVINE	Pte
5740	R	CASEY	Sgt
5865	R	ADAIR	Pte
6132	R	BAXTER	Pte
8157	R	OFFORD	Pte
8732	R	LINDSAY	Pte
3615	R A	ROBINSON	Pte
4355	R A	KEMPSTER	Pte
5399	R A	WHITING	Pte
4403	R A N	CRAYSTON	L/Cpl