P.1903 Bayonet w/ Arabic Script

[DisasterDog]

16 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Yours is definitely more Afghani than Iraqi

Agreed. 👍 

[Mattr82]

I’m late to this thread but reading through it, I was about to suggest you do Pashto. I speak a little bit of Pashto and recognised some of the characters. 
 

If I can find it on one of my old hard drives, I have a photo of myself with some local militia at a checkpoint in Afghan. They’re armed with G3s, AKs and a Long Lee that was manufactured in 1898. I asked them why they had the Long Lee and was told that it could shoot further and more accurately than any of the other weapons they had. 

[navydoc16]

On 10/04/2024 at 10:47, DisasterDog said:

All of these are very interesting regardless, Iraqi P1907s and Afghan P1903s.  Someone cough up a legitimate Egyptian example & I will be all up in your messages!

What are we looking for in the Egyptian bayonets? Markings and such, im afraid I don’t have a good reference that discusses this. 
 

kind regards

g

Edited 13 April by navydoc16

[shippingsteel]

Looking back at these P1903 markings and there are currently 8 individual bayonets that fit the marking pattern that I have translated. I will try to list them in a table, as it helps to piece together the Army structure and relative composition. Keep in mind that the script reads Right to Left however for ease of transcription I will list them from Left to Right. Perhaps we can add to the list over time ...

Brig. Regt. Batt. Comp. Plat. Number.

  1.       1.       2.       5.       3.       116

  1.       2.       3.       1.       1          22

  2.       1.       1.       1.       1.         42

  2.       1.       2.       2.       1.         41

  2.       1.       3.       2.       2.         94

  2.       2.       1.       4.       2.         63

  2.       2.       3.       2.       3.       117

  2.       2.       3.       2.       1.         44

 

So from the above tabled information we can say that there was 2 separate Brigades, compromised of 2 individual Regiments each, made up of 3 Battalions (Kandaks) of up to 5 Companies each with at least 3 Platoons per Company.

Now this is just the current scenario using the information available to date. Further records may give reason to adjust this composition but as it currently stands you get a fair picture of the Afghan Army from that particular period.

I was able to draft this Structure together from just 8 bayonet examples marked in an unknown code based on a completely foreign language.! You can see why Intelligence authorities called for Regimental marking of bayonets to cease during the War. 

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

2 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Looking back at these P1903 markings and there are currently 8 individual bayonets that fit the marking pattern that I have translated. I will try to list them in a table, as it helps to piece together the Army structure and relative composition. Keep in mind that the script reads Right to Left however for ease of transcription I will list them from Left to Right. Perhaps we can add to the list over time ...

Brig. Regt. Batt. Comp. Plat. Number.

  1.       1.       2.       5.       3.       116

  1.       2.       3.       1.       1          22

  2.       1.       1.       1.       1.         42

  2.       1.       2.       2.       1.         41

  2.       1.       3.       2.       2.         94

  2.       2.       1.       4.       2.         63

  2.       2.       3.       2.       3.       117

  2.       2.       3.       2.       1.         44

 

So from the above tabled information we can say that there was 2 separate Brigades, compromised of 2 individual Regiments each, made up of 3 Battalions (Kandaks) of up to 5 Companies each with at least 3 Platoons per Company.

Now this is just the current scenario using the information available to date. Further records may give reason to adjust this composition but as it currently stands you get a fair picture of the Afghan Army from that particular period.

I was able to draft this Structure together from just 8 bayonet examples marked in an unknown code based on a completely foreign language.! You can see why Intelligence authorities called for Regimental marking of bayonets to cease during the War. 

Cheers,  SS 

Amazing mate, very good work. 
 

Yes luckily the marking form in the UK is not quite as drawn out as the above 1903s.

But I appreciate the research and I’m glad it has become a rather fruitful. I have been looking at these 1903s for a while and never bothered to buy more as I had no idea what was written on them.

Are you drawing up a formal table from this point onward or just for personal academic purposes 

kind regards

g

 

[shippingsteel]

No just tabling the information that I have worked out to date. Now starting to look at the alternative pattern markings with multiple letters leading the string. These appear to be independent or named Kandaks with numbered Companies, obviously being marked in this way before coming under the enlarged Brigade/Regiment/Battalion system. Actually now looking for another Pashtun military unit term starting with D. Something similar to Kandak (Battalion) size.?

Cheers,  SS 

[shippingsteel]

Moving on to the second set of these P1903 marking patterns, what I will call the Letter Format. I will now endeavour to list these in a table as well, with what info that I know, as it helps to draw out the similarities. These again all seem to end in the same Company number, Weapon number structure, which is reassuring. The leading letters are all abbreviations so no translation available until we work out what they stand for. Possibly Town/Region/District identifiers of independent Battalions or similar size units.

P1903.  Letters. Letters. Comp. Number.

   K.    A.    E.    D.    L.    H.    2.T.   22

                                K.    D.    2.T.   44

                                K.    D.    5.T.   81

                               Sh.   D.    4.T.   63

                               Sh.   K.    1.T.   42

                                M.   K.    2.T.   41

                                K.    K.    5.T.   46

P1888.           J.    M.    D.    L.6    11

So we can see some patterns emerging in the table. The three letter K's immediately preceding the Company number no doubt stands for Kandak (Battalion). Then we have the three letter D's which must indicate another such unit type (unknown at this stage) UPDATE. Further research has provided Darstiz (Headquarters) as being a strong candidate here. Of course the letter T stands for Tolai (Company) which I take here as a given. This is a work in progress but any new information or examples can be added here in future.

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 17 April by shippingsteel

[shippingsteel]

Thought I had better add the Farsi numerals index so people can know what they are looking at. This variation of the Arabic numerals are the ones we find on these Afghani P1903 bayonets.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

I may have just added a 27? Wilkinson to my collection, it is yet to arrive. 
 

I am hoping it is part of another Middle East contract- will update on details, may not be as it has a Royal cypher. 
 

anyone familiar with this particular year of manufacture? 
 

kind regards

g
 

 

 

Edited 16 April by navydoc16

[t.ryan]

To me, I am thinking that we are looking at a roughly struck 1 not a 2;  1917.

Cheers

TR

[navydoc16]

10 hours ago, t.ryan said:

To me, I am thinking that we are looking at a roughly struck 1 not a 2;  1917.

Cheers

TR

Hope not haha it costed a fair bit more thinking it was a ‘27, it comes from a good reputable dealer and it’s looking quite like it has more of a “tail” on the “2” than a mis marked “1” but time will tell. Could be a very wacky “1”

kind regards

g
 

 

Edited 16 April by navydoc16

[shippingsteel]

Sorry to break the news but Mr.Ryan is correct. It is definitely a 1917 Wilkinson and as common as mud.! The stamping is certainly '17 with the apostrophe perhaps giving an appearance of a 2 but in all honesty NOT very. Time to get a refund methinks.!

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

Bummer indeed, thank you for the assistance, purchase is in the process of being rectified now, eyes are not as good as they used to on all involved it seems. 
 

also it turns out there might be some Afghan marked 1913s out there? Has anyone seen one? 
 

kind regards

g

[navydoc16]

Thanks shippingsteel and t.ryan. You really saved my bacon on that one. The eye sees what it want to sometimes

kind regards,

g

[shippingsteel]

On 14/04/2024 at 22:27, shippingsteel said:

Actually now looking for another Pashtun military unit term starting with D. Something similar to Kandak (Battalion) size.?

Just going to provide an update on this, and then put the new information into my above Table. So with the Letter Format examples I identified a common letter D that seemed to be related to Unit size or structure.

Searching and researching in the Pashto military terminology has provided Darstiz (Headquarters) as a strong possibility as the abbreviation starting with the letter D.

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 17 April by shippingsteel

[Mattr82]

I still have a handbook that was given to us that described the Afghan National Army in detail. I was providing mentoring to them and got familiar with the terms of the ANA. Found this online as a simple reference.  

[navydoc16]

On 18/04/2024 at 10:19, Mattr82 said:

I still have a handbook that was given to us that described the Afghan National Army in detail. I was providing mentoring to them and got familiar with the terms of the ANA. Found this online as a simple reference.  

Can you upload some pages from the handbook you have? Might assist with the matter 

 

kind regards 

g

[shippingsteel]

I believe this is the document that was referenced. I had already found it and been through it. Mostly confirms what I had posted previously. Think we have come to the end of the line, as the possibilities for the meaning of abbreviations (especially leading letters) are endless.

https://www.scholarexpress.net/index.php/wbml/article/download/692/629

Cheers,  SS 

[shippingsteel]

I will do a couple of worked translations to show where we are up to, and perhaps illustrate the difficulties in moving forward.

Both these examples show the leading letter format and are a part of the same system. The first letter is an Sh and currently unknown. Without the proper marking instruction Handbook you could take your pick of Province/District/Region/City/Town and "insert here".!

So from what I have thus far this example would read as follows ...

Sh (whatever) Darstiz (Headquarters) 4th Tolai (Company) Number 63

And this one was part of the same system but later partly "marked out" ...

Sh (whatever) Kandak (Battalion) 1st Tolai (Company) Number 42 

Any suggestions for the meaning of the leading letter abbreviation are welcome ... your guess is as good as mine.! 

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

8 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

I will do a couple of worked translations to show where we are up to, and perhaps illustrate the difficulties in moving forward.

Both these examples show the leading letter format and are a part of the same system. The first letter is an Sh and currently unknown. Without the proper marking instruction Handbook you could take your pick of Province/District/Region/City/Town and "insert here".!

So from what I have thus far this example would read as follows ...

Sh (whatever) Darstiz (Headquarters) 4th Tolai (Company) Number 63

And this one was part of the same system but later partly "marked out" ...

Sh (whatever) Kandak (Battalion) 1st Tolai (Company) Number 42 

Any suggestions for the meaning of the leading letter abbreviation are welcome ... your guess is as good as mine.! 

Cheers,  SS 

Now not totally spitballing here- but just going from a couple other themes in terms of rifles and other arms and other countries. And probably half summarising what is above - I have spoken to a friend who studies the history of Iran in the early 20th, however seems that he understands a bit of Afghan history as well. From our chat, his knowledge on politics and my understanding of bayonet things:
 

I have a feeling we are looking at post WW1 - under the rule of Amir Amanullah Khan  غازی امان الله خان

who was sovereign from 1919- 1929, it would have been early enough that the 1903s would have still been able to be made (likely from existing unfinished blanks and probably for a discounted price) - Kahn was a bit of a British proxy in a lot of respects, the British seem to have assisted in his installation as a “friendly face” to their influence in the region. Hence the weapon uptake being British as well.

when Kahn took over he attempted to nationalise a lot of public systems and had control of the army and treasury - he also dosent seem to have a “coat of arms” which likely is why the blades are marked the way they are, which would be otherwise unusual for a monarchy. 
 

the Shorter blade is also in line with the “tradition” of the region as a dagger- and would have represented a symbol of power and respect whilst also being a rifle tool. 
 

I can unfortunately not lend my hand in the description, however completely on a limb I’m assuming one side will lay “ownership of the bayonet” and the other will say “ownership of the user” or the fighting force that they fought for. Now assuming the names would be drawn from the largest towns where military bases stood. These towns should be “naturally” sufficient for life I.e. pre-electricity they should have been preferential to live and should likely still survive today - assuming the names have not changed. 
 

kind regards

g

[navydoc16]

Maybe if we overlay this data with a 1920s map - we might just get something to work with - but maybe not.

there is still a large population on the border, Shenf and shibergan? Which are drawing a decent amount of power today and have decent sized populations- Afghanistan has not changed much over the last century and thus names will have changed but percentage population densities should similar if not basically identical.

the border town of Shenf would also have been important to guard in those days.

from our own knowledge now of battalion sizes ect, we may be able to make a decent estimated guess on the region/town. 

I need to find a better map but I’m just on my phone which is a bit garbage. 

Edited 22 April by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

Maybe this one, might be more helpful, it is also dated 1892. I would like to try find a British survey map from around the time of the war 

kind regards

g

Edited 21 April by navydoc16

[shippingsteel]

4 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

The first letter is an Sh and currently unknown. Without the proper marking instruction Handbook you could take your pick of Province/District/Region/City/Town and "insert here".!

Having a look and there is a place called Sheberghān in the very North of Afghanistan (on the old Silk Road) which might fit the bill. Quite a large City and now the capital of Jowzjan Province, it has been around a very long time. It starts with the right Sh letter in the language to match the leading abbreviation illustrated above.

Cheers,  SS

[navydoc16]

11 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Having a look and there is a place called Sheberghān in the very North of Afghanistan (on the old Silk Road) which might fit the bill. Quite a large City and now the capital of Jowzjan Province, it has been around a very long time. It starts with the right Sh letter in the language to match the leading abbreviation illustrated above.

Cheers,  SS

Love it mate- now we just need to find more 1903 examples hahaha. 

Bummer, because I would have bought all three of those ones from that bloke on fleabay had I found them more interesting a couple months ago. 
 

kind regards

g
 

Edited 22 April by navydoc16

[DisasterDog]

On 10/04/2024 at 20:50, navydoc16 said:

What are we looking for in the Egyptian bayonets? Markings and such, im afraid I don’t have a good reference that discusses this. 
 

kind regards

g

I have no idea, as I have never seen one.

 I have seen people reference them, but I believe they are confusing Iraqi for Egyptian by simply lumping “Arabic” together.  
 

The only thing I can think of that would positively identify a P1907 as Egyptian might be the Egyptian Police marking, often found on Citadel Martini-Enfields & Greener EG shotguns.  There is plenty of photographic evidence of the Gaffirs with ShtLEs.