P.1903 Bayonet w/ Arabic Script

[navydoc16]

All are Wilkinson crown 49

[JMB1943]

Navydoc,

All of these are marked crown / 49 / W , so that it seems all the more likely, as you and others have stated, that they are indeed from a private contract by Wilkinson.

We need to run these inscriptions past a “Dept. of Oriental Languages “ somewhere…..

Regards,

JMB

[shippingsteel]

1 hour ago, JMB1943 said:

We need to run these inscriptions past a “Dept. of Oriental Languages “ somewhere…..

Regards,

JMB

I am afraid that a language translator will not be of much assistance in this case. As I have mentioned before the writing is a "string code" format made up of separate letters and numbers. 

I can tell the writing is in Farsi/Dari and most likely emanating from the Afghanistan region, but it appears to be a group of abbreviations. Without knowing what the letters indicate we are none the wiser.

It is a bit like asking an English language professor to translate the Regimental unit markings from the pommel of a British P1907 bayonet.! Everybody can see the pattern of letters and numbers, but without knowledge of the "Instructions for Armourers" or Skennerton's "Broad Arrow" it cannot be done. We need to know the "Handbook" before we can break the "Code". 

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 8 April by shippingsteel

[navydoc16]

30 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

I am afraid that a language translator will not be of much assistance in this case. As I have mentioned before the writing is a "string code" format made up of separate letters and numbers. 

I can tell the writing is in Farsi/Dari and most likely emanating from the Afghanistan region, but it appears to be a group of abbreviations. Without knowing what the letters indicate we are none the wiser.

It is a bit like asking an English language professor to translate the Regimental unit markings from the pommel of a British P1907 bayonet.! Everybody can see the pattern of letters and numbers, but without knowledge of the "Instructions for Armourers" or Skennerton's "Broad Arrow" it cannot be done. We need to know the "Handbook" before we can break the "Code". 

Cheers,  SS 

I’ve never seen any code book for this unfortunately, I wondering if we can work out the common words like “Unit and Regiment ect

 

kind regards

g

 

[shippingsteel]

Even the words that are written there are mostly in "shorthand". These read from right to left, and the part to the far left is like the "weapon number". Each example is marked much the same. One of them showed the full word which allowed me to translate. It reads as "number", so in the illustration below it ends in Number 22. The letters at the beginning are all single letters not words as such, more like abbreviations.

Cheers,  SS 

[shippingsteel]

Here is one of the clearest markings illustrated below. I was able to replicate the inscription on an Urdu keyboard. It can't be translated as such as it just reads letter, number, letter, number, etc right across till the end where it says Number 42. That's why I call it a "string code" as the closest possible explanation of the format.

Cheers,  SS 

  42   Number   1B.    1T.    1K.    1G.    2L.

Edited 8 April by shippingsteel

[navydoc16]

4 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Here is one of the clearest markings illustrated below. I was able to replicate the inscription on an Urdu keyboard. It can't be translated as such as it just reads letter, number, letter, number, etc right across till the end where it says Number 42. That's why I call it a "string code" as the closest possible explanation of the format.

Cheers,  SS 

  42   Number   1B.    1T.    1K.    1G.    1L.

You have any idea about the 1937 contract one? 
 

kind regards

g

[shippingsteel]

10 hours ago, navydoc16 said:

You have any idea about the 1937 contract one? 

Crossguard numbers.  373

Pommel abbreviation.   MTMM over 99

Scabbard throat numbers.  771  or  188

Scabbard abbreviation.   A H M

Scabbard throat ends.   S. and. 4

These numbers are Eastern Arabic as opposed to Farsi/Urdu numbers found on the marked P1903 bayonets.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

No guess on the country I suppose? 
 

my thought is that it’s not a Kingdom at least in 1937 as they were normally pretty keen to put Royal cyphers and crests on gear. 

 

kind regards

g

13 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Crossguard numbers.  373

Pommel abbreviation.   MTMM over 99

Scabbard throat numbers.  771  or  188

Scabbard abbreviation.   A H M

Scabbard throat ends.   S. and. 4

These numbers are Eastern Arabic as opposed to Farsi/Urdu numbers found on the marked P1903 bayonets.

Cheers,  SS 

Thanks so much for this

[shippingsteel]

Looking back at some of these P1903 examples and we can see a pattern emerging with the lead abbreviations. While the "weapon number" to the left remains the same, on opposite side tangs we have 2 different leading strings.

It appears that they had a change in administrative structure somewhere along the way. So like a smaller independent unit came under the umbrella of a larger regional or divisional organisation.

I believe these are written like the German Imperial regimental markings codes found on their bayonets, rifles, etc. Just that in this case we don't have the Afghani armourers marking Handbook.!

I suspect the letters to the right would indicate the larger unit size, while descending in unit size moving to the left. Unfortunately I have no idea what their unit structure was. The possible date range I guess would be first half of the 20th century.

Putting all these markings on a spreadsheet may be the next step. But researching the history and unit structure of that period Afghan army would be the clincher I believe. Sadly Google is clogged with so much modern war information.

Cheers,  SS

Edited 9 April by shippingsteel

[4thGordons]

Just a thought - I believe BSA supplied a contract of No1 MkIII* rifles to Iraq in 1935/37 so I wonder if the relatively scarce inter war date on the bayonet is associated with that contract?

My Iraqi rifles have a triangular "Jeem" mark on them.

To my untrained eye the numbers on the stock disc appear to be the "Eastern Arabic" identified by SS above?

   

 

Just  to make sure we maintain the WW1 connection one of my Iraq marked rifles is a 1918 produced BSA refinished for the contract

Edited 9 April by 4thGordons

[t.ryan]

A 1903 bayonet recently sold here on the bay by a reputable local bayonet dealer, it has similar markings between grips and a good story to go with it.

Cheers,

TR

[navydoc16]

Yes that’s the same bloke with the others, he has sold 4 now in the last 2 months. They are not so much in my collection realm that I thought I needed more than 2 however.

unfortunately I tend to dislike the extra details, and somewhat stretching of the truth he presents- As of yet I think he has sold 10 “ no.3 sniper rifle bayonets” for the Australian P14- when none have the Australian marking and are simply standard 1913 bayonets - but to each their own

1 hour ago, t.ryan said:

A 1903 bayonet recently sold here on the bay by a reputable local bayonet dealer, it has similar markings between grips and a good story to go with it.

Cheers,

TR

 

  

1 hour ago, 4thGordons said:

Just a thought - I believe BSA supplied a contract of No1 MkIII* rifles to Iraq in 1935/37 so I wonder if the relatively scarce inter war date on the bayonet is associated with that contract?

My Iraqi rifles have a triangular "Jeem" mark on them.

To my untrained eye the numbers on the stock disc appear to be the "Eastern Arabic" identified by SS above?

   

 

Just  to make sure we maintain the WW1 connection one of my Iraq marked rifles is a 1918 produced BSA refinished for the contract

Now that is bloody fascinating, the dies for the marking on the stock disc appear an almost perfect match for the bayonet. And as you say it is quite a rare date- i have about 20 interwar bayonets, only this one is from mid 30s. All the rest are early to late 20’s

 

kind regards

g

Edited 9 April by navydoc16

[shippingsteel]

31 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

To my untrained eye the numbers on the stock disc appear to be the "Eastern Arabic" identified by SS above?

Yes Chris your disc has 106 stamped in the standard Eastern Arabic numerals. Not the Farsi/Dari/Urdu numbers of the Afghanistan region. Strangely it is only a handful of numbers that are different so the variation can be difficult to pick up.

Cheers,  SS 

[navydoc16]

Stumped, just found a Iraqi bayonet with a Jeem marking 

Seems like some of the stock discs had them too 

Edited 9 April by navydoc16

[shippingsteel]

After doing some more research I think I might have just "broken the code" for the script on these P1903 bayonets.!! The thing I had been missing is that the "language" is basically Pashto. So running the common military units through in Pashto and the little bells started ringing.! BINGO 

So as I suspected the Unit structure starts with biggest to the right, down to smallest unit to the left, then the weapon number. Mostly the strings run as shown below.

 xx   Number.  Platoon.  Company.  Battalion.  Regiment.  Brigade 

xx.  Number.    Blook.    Tolai.    Kandak.    Ghund.    Laywaa

The key letters shown here I will illustrate in a worked translation from the script on these bayonets below.

From right to left we read as follows:-

2nd Brigade, 1st Regiment, 2nd Battalion, 2nd Company, 1st Platoon, Number 41

From right to left we read as follows:-

2nd Brigade, 2nd Regiment, 1st Battalion, 4th Company, 2nd Platoon, Number 63

I think this system makes complete sense, and as I mentioned seems to follow the German lead in the manner of marking weapons. Any questions feel free to ask, it's all a learning experience. 

Cheers,  SS

Edited 9 April by shippingsteel

[navydoc16]

1 hour ago, shippingsteel said:

After doing some more research I think I might have just "broken the code" for the script on these P1903 bayonets.!! The thing I had been missing is that the "language" is basically Pashto. So running the common military units through in Pashto and the little bells started ringing.! BINGO 

So as I suspected the Unit structure starts with biggest to the right, down to smallest unit to the left, then the weapon number. Mostly the strings run as shown below.

 xx   Number.  Platoon.  Company.  Battalion.  Regiment.  Brigade 

xx.  Number.    Blook.    Tolai.    Kandak.    Ghund.    Laywaa

The key letters shown here I will illustrate in a worked translation from the script on these bayonets below.

From right to left we read as follows:-

2nd Brigade, 1st Regiment, 2nd Battalion, 2nd Company, 1st Platoon, Number 41

From right to left we read as follows:-

2nd Brigade, 2nd Regiment, 1st Battalion, 4th Company, 2nd Platoon, Number 63

I think this system makes complete sense, and as I mentioned seems to follow the German lead in the manner of marking weapons. Any questions feel free to ask, it's all a learning experience. 

Cheers,  SS

Bloody hell I think you've you've done it, cracker mate that's great. 

The first one is my one and I have now completed its tag thanks to you 

lucky number 100 of my red tags 

kind regards,

g

Edited 9 April by navydoc16

[4thGordons]

Does this P1888 brought back from Afghanistan for me by a friend follow the same pattern?

[DisasterDog]

21 hours ago, navydoc16 said:

No guess on the country I suppose? 

Agreed that it is Iraqi, as 4th Gordon’s says above.  Iraqi contract BSA rifles have been seen as late as 1939.

[DisasterDog]

All of these are very interesting regardless, Iraqi P1907s and Afghan P1903s.  Someone cough up a legitimate Egyptian example & I will be all up in your messages!

[navydoc16]

I’m not entirely sure mine is Iraqi, could it be Egyptian? It seems to match several purported Egyptian 1907s online and mine has no JEEM which is marked on Iraq 1907s 

 

I am completely out of my depth on the Arabic stuff so- DD what clearly defines an Egyptian 1907 vs other Arabic 1907s? 

 

Out of curiosity from this thread I've gone and purchased two "Egyptian" 1907's from that bloke in the Netherlands, one supposedly has egyption /acceptance proof marks on one side

 

Should hopefully arrive in a couple weeks and ill be able to maybe provide you with some info 
 

kind regards

g

Edited 10 April by navydoc16

[Driver Higgs]

So… just going back to the bayonet I posted up in December last year… can I say it’s Iraqi or Afghan??

[shippingsteel]

17 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Does this P1888 brought back from Afghanistan for me by a friend follow the same pattern?

Chris it is marked similarly but different. Using another system it looks to be 4 single letters leading before a 6 then the number 11. I will have to put some more thought into the other style markings when I get a chance.

Cheers,  SS

Edited 10 April by shippingsteel

[shippingsteel]

14 minutes ago, Driver Higgs said:

So… just going back to the bayonet I posted up in December last year… can I say it’s Iraqi or Afghan??

Yours is definitely more Afghani than Iraqi. We can say this with some confidence because of the Farsi numerals stamped on your bayonet. It doesn't have the more standard Arabic numerals which are used in Iraq. As I did the translation example of yours above I am going to say it was Afghan army issue.

Cheers,  SS 

[Driver Higgs]

Thanks for that shippingsteel!