Churchill's Secret War WIth Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918-20

[MaureenE]

The Army Rumour Service post mentioned above by Bachibouzouk on 17 January 2024 is https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/british-soldiers-in-the-russian-revolution.152624/post-6510960

(Post 52, 10 June 2015, Army Rumour Service topic "British soldiers in the Russian Revolution")

Maureen

[wrightdw]

Hi Bachi,

There was a dog which was adopted by British POW's in Siberia which they brought to Moscow. The dog had lost its tail and a leg to a train. It is possible the dog shown is the same.

Not sure about the flag if it was homemade or perhaps in the possession of Reverend North.

Reverend and Mrs North were repatriated to England with the last British POW's via Finland in late March 1920.

One of the photographs you posted (in fur hat - possibly taken in North Russia), shows white and blue brassard on each arm. These are the recognition colours of RE Signals Service (today Royal Corps of Signals).

The cap badge in the first image (with stirrups) is Royal Engineers. The swagger stick was an accoutrement for the purpose of the photograph.

I can't make out enough of the middle image to add comment.

 

[Bachibouzouk]

 

Thanks Damien

it's great to get those confirmations.

Really enjoying trying to get some sort of a pattern from the bits and bobs we have - a few pieces of a long lost jigsaw puzzle and no pattern to go on.

I'm underway with Churchill's Secret War With Lenin.

 

[Bachibouzouk]

On 18/01/2024 at 00:40, wrightdw said:

‘Can you post the link to the Army Rumour Service Russia POW image?’

 

I believe MaureenE has already posted the link. Fortuitously, I came across the same photo going down another rabbit-hole this evening. It is labelled something along the lines of: a Christmas ‘do’ at the English vicarage. So probably is of the same vintage as the photo in your book. I found it under Forestry-Memories.org.uk

The soldier in question at Forestry-Memories is one George Robertson (second left, top row in the photo). There are some very interesting scans of his memorabilia there too. Apart from photos, his permit to circulate in Moscow, his release papers, a letter signed by Litvinov, an excerpt from a radio interview.

You probably know all this already but I couldn’t see his name on the list of known POW’s in your book. Of course, my Kindle may not be the latest edition of the book.

 

‘I have a chapter on the Russia POW's in my book.’

 

I haven’t got quite that far yet! Finding it a fascinating read.

 

 

[MaureenE]

The link mentioned by Bachibouzouk in the post above  from Forestry-Memories.org.uk is https://www.forestry-memories.org.uk/picture/number3979 "George Robertson on return from Moscow" which in turn contains a further link to a pdf.

Two further histories which contain service in North Russia:

History of the East Surrey Regiment Volume 3 1917-1919 https://archive.org/details/histeastsurreyregimentvol3/page/n9/mode/2up  and relevant Contents page https://archive.org/details/histeastsurreyregimentvol3/page/n14/mode/1up 

The Royal Scots 1914-1919, Volume 2 https://archive.org/details/royalscots1914-1919vol2/page/n7/mode/2up  and relevant contents page https://archive.org/details/royalscots1914-1919vol2/page/n13/mode/1up

Also a personal account 

Held by the Bolsheviks. The Diary of a British Officer in Russia, 1919-1920 by Major L E Vining 1924 https://archive.org/details/heldbybolsheviks/page/n11/mode/2up

Maureen

[Bachibouzouk]

 

Thanks for posting those links, Maureen. I tried to post the Forestry-Memories one here but had to hoist the white flag of frustration.

Vinings's Held By The Bolsheviks and Francis McCullagh's A Prisoner Of The Reds are on my reading list but next, after a breather and a change of subject, will be Rupert Wieloch's Churchill's Abandoned Prisoners.

I haven't quite finished Damien's hugely detailed Churchill's Secret War With Lenin but did fast forward to Chapter 19 (Moscow PoWs). A quite extraordinary and, to me at least, surprising chapter, though of course the whole Russian episode is surprising in every sense of the word.

[MaureenE]

Service in North Russia is mentioned in the book, available online in the Internet Archive 

To the Ends of the Air by Group Captain G E Livock (1973 HMSO) (RNAS and  Royal Air Force 1914-1931) https://archive.org/details/totheendsoftheair/page/n5/mode/2up

Chapter 4 North Russia page 62 https://archive.org/details/totheendsoftheair/page/61/mode/2up

Maureen

 

[MaureenE]

Available online in the Internet Archive 

The Murmansk Venture  by Major-General Sir C Maynard 1928 Archive.org

https://archive.org/details/murmanskventure/page/n11/mode/2up

Maureen

[Bachibouzouk]

On 21/01/2024 at 14:08, wrightdw said:

Hi Bachi,

There was a dog which was adopted by British POW's in Siberia which they brought to Moscow. The dog had lost its tail and a leg to a train. It is possible the dog shown is the same.

 

 

Having just finished Rupert Wieloch's Churchill's Abandoned Prisoners I am pretty clear in my own mind that they were not the same dog.

Three-legged Teddy was a white dog, as can be seen in the photo of the 14 POWs on HMS Delhi in Rupert Wieloch's book.

Vining's group arrived in Moscow sometime after the larger 'North group' had already been repatriated.

 

[Bachibouzouk]

 

Some thoughts on Churchill's Secret War With Lenin?

It is an incredibly researched book. I can only begin to wonder as to the size of that task. Certainly it took me quite some time to read. Inexperienced in military matters and with no knowledge at all of the subject matter I was consistently taken down any number of Google rabbit-holes (ranks, size of units, pound-age of guns, jargon, etc...). But it was well worth the effort.

I was initially flummoxed by the repetitions until I realised that that enabled each chapter to be read independently.

My particular interest was, of course, the North Russia theatre and the Moscow POWs chapters. You painted a good picture, Damien, and I was able to get a clearer idea of conditions and what Pops might have gone through.

I read it as an e-book on Kindle, which perhaps isn't the best option. The book hasn't always transferred well to the electronic format. As it is a 'keeper', I will be ordering a hard copy shortly.

For your information Damien: my sister has also ordered a copy and I will be buying one for my other sister, so Sapper Sidney Arthur Foster will have been responsible for three book sales and one Kindle sale.

[MaureenE]

Available online in the Internet Archive. Click on the copied link

The North Russian Campaign. A Lecture by Major-General Sir Edmund Ironside [1926, British Forces 1918-1919] pages 307-319 The Journal of the Royal Artillery Volume 53, No.3 1926 October.

Sorry I could not change the font size.

The following list is a gathering together of online books I have posted since December 2023, including regimental histories, where the regiments went to Russia

 

The Murmansk Venture  by Major-General Sir C Maynard 1928 Archive.org https://archive.org/details/murmanskventure/page/n11/mode/2up

 "Reminiscences of Russia 1917" by Major E E Charles page 378 The Army Quarterly Volume 12, 1926 April- July https://archive.org/details/armyquarterlyv12-1926/page/377/mode/2up  

 

A personal account:  Held by the Bolsheviks. The Diary of a British Officer in Russia, 1919-1920 by Major L E Vining 1924 https://archive.org/details/heldbybolsheviks/page/n11/mode/2up

Service in North Russia is mentioned in To the Ends of the Air by Group Captain G E Livock (1973 HMSO) (RNAS and  Royal Air Force 1914-1931) https://archive.org/details/totheendsoftheair/page/n5/mode/2up Chapter 4 North Russia page 62 https://archive.org/details/totheendsoftheair/page/61/mode/2up

Regimental histories:

The Die-Hards in the Great War. A History of the Duke of Cambridge’s Own (Middlesex Regiment), 1914-1919. Volume 2 1916-1919 by Everard Wyrall 1926 Archive.org

https://archive.org/details/diehardsvol2/page/n9/mode/2up

History of the East Surrey Regiment Volume 3 1917-1919 https://archive.org/details/histeastsurreyregimentvol3/page/n9/mode/2up  and relevant Contents page https://archive.org/details/histeastsurreyregimentvol3/page/n14/mode/1up 

The Green Howards in the Great War by Colonel H C Wylly 1926 https://archive.org/details/greenhowardsgtwar/page/n9/mode/2up Archive.org

The Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of Wales's). Volume 2, 1914-1918 by  F Loraine Petre  1925 https://archive.org/details/berkshireregtvol2/page/n7/mode/2up

The Royal Scots 1914-1919, Volume 2 https://archive.org/details/royalscots1914-1919vol2/page/n7/mode/2up  and relevant contents page https://archive.org/details/royalscots1914-1919vol2/page/n13/mode/1up

Maureen

 

 

 

[wrightdw]

Thanks for your review Bachi,

The book was originally written as two books, Volume I covering operations in North Russia 1918-19 (Murmansk and Archangel) and Volume 2 covering operations in other areas, Eastern Baltic 1918-19, Turkestan & Caspian 1918-19, South Russia 1918-20, Siberia 1919-20, Spies & Secret Agents and POW's.

The publisher advised two volume books are always don't sell as well, Vol. I invariably sells well but Vol. 2 never sells as many. It was his suggestion to combine the two volumes into a single book which was split Part I: Murmansk, Part II: Archangel: Part III other areas.

There is some repetition of the strategic 'set up' in the second part of the book in particular which was originally Vol. 2. but as you mention, this means the parts can be read independently without the need to read the first 286 pages.

I was given a firm limit of 550 pages for the book (thereafter the unit price goes up) however the publisher (Helion, Birmingham) was very accommodating and let me get away with 576 pages which allowed me to include the casualty roll in particular.

There are many things I would have done differently particular with regards to editing but it was my first book and I learnt alot from the process which I was able to put to good use in my second book coming out this year.

 

[Tom Heneghan]

Does anyone know anything about Lieutenant Michael Joseph Monaghan (born 1893 in Drumcliffe, County Sligo in Ireland) who fought in the British Army in WW1 (7th Rifle Brigade) and was taken prisoner in France on 21 March 1918 at the start of the German Spring Offensive. A few months after returning to England at the end of that war, he joined a British unit (unknow which) in the North Russian Intervention. I saw somewhere that he was an advisor to the 7th North Russian Rifle Regiment. He was taken prisoner by the Bolsheviks around July 1919 after White Russian troops mutinied near Lake Onega and brought to Moscow (described in Damien Wright's account). There he was held in Butyrka prison and freed with about a dozen other British officers to join Rev. Frank North and family on the trip out to Terijoki (where he is pictured with the Norths and the other freed officers) and took a ship with North to England. I would like to know more about this Russia episode for a book. 

[wrightdw]

Monaghan was one of 29 officers and men taken prisoner on 20 July 1919 during a mutiny of White Russian troops at Onega on the White Sea.

Australian Captain Allan Brown, AIF was murdered during this mutiny.

One of the prisoners was Captain George Roupell, VC, East Lancs Regiment.

More than a few officers who volunteered for Russia had been POW's on the Western Front.

Edited 21 March by wrightdw

[Tom Heneghan]

Damien Wright, many thanks for this (I didn't know how many prisoners there were). I saw the reference to Monaghan in your list of POWs in Churchill's Secret War with Lenin and have read several accounts of that mutiny. But nothing more about him. What I'm looking for -- if it is available -- is further information such as what British army unit he belonged it, when he arrived in North Russia, why he re-upped after being a German POW in WW1, etc. Anything you or anyone else might have would be much appreciated. 

[Bachibouzouk]

Hello Tom

I've got an appointment at Nuffield College to have a look through Lord Emmott's archive, though not until mid-June. Some sources say that ALL returning Moscow PoWs were interviewed (vetted for Bolshevik corruption?), other sources that only some PoWs were. Perhaps my grandfather and your man will have been interviewed and their notes still be in the archive?

I'll keep an eye out for Lieutenant Michael Joseph Monaghan.

Apparently the manifest of the SS Dongola, the ship that the Norths and a good number of PoWs came back to Britain on, is available on line - at Ancestry.com, I believe. I haven't yet had time to check this out.

[Bachibouzouk]

On 02/03/2024 at 01:31, Bachibouzouk said:

 

Some thoughts on Churchill's Secret War With Lenin?

It is an incredibly researched book. I can only begin to wonder as to the size of that task. Certainly it took me quite some time to read. Inexperienced in military matters and with no knowledge at all of the subject matter I was consistently taken down any number of Google rabbit-holes (ranks, size of units, pound-age of guns, jargon, etc...). But it was well worth the effort.

I was initially flummoxed by the repetitions until I realised that that enabled each chapter to be read independently.

My particular interest was, of course, the North Russia theatre and the Moscow POWs chapters. You painted a good picture, Damien, and I was able to get a clearer idea of conditions and what Pops might have gone through.

I read it as an e-book on Kindle, which perhaps isn't the best option. The book hasn't always transferred well to the electronic format. As it is a 'keeper', I will be ordering a hard copy shortly.

For your information Damien: my sister has also ordered a copy and I will be buying one for my other sister, so Sapper Sidney Arthur Foster will have been responsible for three book sales and one Kindle sale.

 

Damien - the hardcover version arrived today. No wonder it me took such a time to read - it is a very impressive tome.

So much nicer than an e-book and it will be much easier to reference stuff and photos. It is also a thing of great beauty.

What, may I enquire, will be the subject of your second book?

 

[Open Bolt]

29 minutes ago, Bachibouzouk said:

What, may I enquire, will be the subject of your second book?

Yes, we want to know - but maybe need patience!

[Tom Heneghan]

Hello Bachibouzouk and Open Bolt,

I'm trying to reconstruct his military career. He was both a POW of the Germans (captured during the March 1918 Spring Offensive in France) and also the Bolsheviks (during the July 1919 mutiny near Onega Lake).  

Tom

[Bachibouzouk]

1 hour ago, Tom Heneghan said:

Hello Bachibouzouk and Open Bolt,

I'm trying to reconstruct his military career. He was both a POW of the Germans (captured during the March 1918 Spring Offensive in France) and also the Bolsheviks (during the July 1919 mutiny near Onega Lake).  

Tom

 

Well Tom you are several steps ahead of me. I can still find no trace of my grandfather's war record. I have no idea what he did prior to Russia, how he ended up in Russia (conscripted or volunteered), how or where he was captured and when he got back. All my leads go cold. I just had a quick look through the Dongola manifest, either the PoWs are listed separately or they weren't on that sailing. Somehow I was under the impression that at least some (most I thought) PoWs were on the sailing with Frank, Margaret and Herbert North, Dimitri Tolstoy and Alexander Faberge. I'm now putting considerable hope into Lord Emmott's archives in Oxford!

 

 

[Tom Heneghan]

Bachibouzouk - 

I assumed he was on the Dongola because I found a Guardian clipping from 24 May 1920 that said it landed in Southampton that morning (could be the previous day, there is no date on the story) with Frank North & family the most prominent passengers. It's available on Ancestry.com. It says the ship brought "230 British and 120 French refugees from Russia" but did not mention the POWs. A story from The Times dated 17 April 1920 reported said the Foreign Office reported that a lot of Brits (they gave named but no total) from Moscow had crossed the frontier into Finland on 15 April 1920. Amomg them was Frank. Margaret and son Herbert North. The last paragraph said "Also the following military prisoners of war" and named Monaghan as one of the 14 persons. "All fit," it ended. 

Another story (can't find it right now but I have it) said North came with the POWs by train from Moscow but was stopped at the border because he wanted to take some personal things with him. When they heard this, the POWs said they would not cross without North and the police, who seemed to be looking for a bribe, relented and let everyone cross the border.

Forgot to say thanks if you find anything about him at Oxford. It makes sense that he/they would have been debriefed. 

Tom 

 

[Bachibouzouk]

Interim Report of the Committee to Collect Information on Russia (1920).

This is the interim report of Lord Emmott's Committee of interviews of returning Moscow prisoners to collect information on Russia.

I was able to download the link that appears in the bibliography of Rupert Wieloch's Churchill's Abandoned Prisoners:

wdc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/russian/id/5272

which has been digitalised by the University of Warwick.

It's a fascinating read (23 pages) and gives a good picture of the appalling conditions of prison life in Moscow. There's also a translation of a Bolshevik report into the various prisons, so you get both both points of view. Very grim in both instances.

Burtiki, Andronievsky, Ivanosky prisons are all mentioned as are the prison of the All-Russian Extraordinary Commission (the Lubyanka?), Alexander Barracks and Pokrovsky Compulsory Labour Camp.

Disappointing (for me in any case) is that with the single exception of Captain Francis McCullagh the Interim Report only covers civilians. It also hints that not all returning prisoners were interviewed. What it does make pretty clear is that the British prisoners were held as hostages for exchange purposes.

[Bachibouzouk]

 

And on the subject of Rupert Wieloch's Churchill's Abandoned Prisoners:

A highly recommend book which covers the Siberian theatre and the journey of the small band of prisoners (Leonard Vining, Brian Horrocks, Francis McCullagh et al.) up and down the Trans-Siberian railway and onto Moscow. It's also written for the layman, so very readable. I couldn't put it down. Covers their period of imprisonment in Moscow.

I've bookmarked Vining's Held By The Bolsheviks and McCullagh's Prisoner Of The Reds for future reading.

Am presently reading and enjoying Light Cavalry Action by Max Hennessy, as recommended by someone on another Forum. It's a courtroom fiction set in 1939 and deals with an incident in the southern Russian theatre (1919). Gripping stuff.

Happy reading.

[oxiana]

This is a fascinating thread, with many rich links to other material (as well as the discussion about Damien Wrights brilliant Churchill’s Secret War with Lenin. It's inspired me to make my first post on the forum. Hello!

Would any one here know of any archives that might hold copies of the British Army-produced newspaper The Pole Star? I assume it was printed in Archangel, but I don't know how many editions were printed. I know that the University of Michigan Library's Polar Bear Expedition Collection has issues of the related US forces newspaper The American Sentinel, but I haven't found many references to these newspapers in general.

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

 

[MaureenE]

See https://discover.libraryhub.jisc.ac.uk/search?q=" The Pole Star"&rn=17 which says 

Holding libraries

University of Birmingham Libraries

Durham University Library and Collections

University of Edinburgh Libraries

Edinburgh Napier University

Lancaster University

Open University Library

However, most of these references are to the lIbrary subscription database  "Trench Journals and Unit Magazines of the First World War" a Proquest database. The British Library used also to have access to this database, but I don't know the current situation with the British Library following a computer hack last year.

Maureen