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wrightdw

Churchill's Secret War WIth Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918-20

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James A Pratt III

Glad to be of help Daimen. I got the book Russian and Soviet Battleships by ILL in the US some years ago and xeroxed off the pages. You might be able to contact the author either through Warship or Warship International Magazines. This work is the book on the subject.

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GrenPen

Some augmented indexing, in reference to the French and Italian elements, would benefit the second edition.

Also, there was an assumption in the book that the French battalion of troops for overseas service (21e Battailon de Marche Infanterie Coloniale) were themselves from overseas territories which was not the case,(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troupes_coloniales). In Anglo-Saxon terms, they are more akin to the European regiments of the HEIC prior to 1857.

As I understand it, the American and Italian contingents were armed with Moisin Nagant rifles made by Westinghouse. I am sure that I recently read that one party (deliberately ambiguous) of Royal Marine Light Infantry were similarly equipped.

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SteveMarsdin

Good morning All,

 

The 21e Battailon de Marche Infanterie Coloniale were from mainland France but there were a few non-French colonial troops in Siberia. Although prominently European, the Colonial Corps battalion in Siberia did include some who weren't from mainland France:

Siberia.JPG.2be5c66f50741dbe177864241a7428f2.JPG1156952761_Siberia2.JPG.35d7f13bbee29b567dc1a41f3125acda.JPG

 

Although the JMO on the MemoiresdesHommes site http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/inventaires/ead_ir_consult.php?a=4&ref=SHDGR__GR_26_N_II

from which these extracts are taken refers to Bataillon Coloniale Sibérien I cant find the  full JMO for 21e Battailon de Marche Infanterie Coloniale, just one for the 2e compagnie de skieurs

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/inventaires/ead_ir_consult.php?a=4&ref=SHDGR__GR_26_N_II

 

Steve

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GrenPen

Hi Steve,

I have replied to your interesting post, albeit on a different thread, with a view to staying on the topic of Damien's book.



One thing I will say, though, is that Damien's book does refer to a reconnaissance party involving both Lieutenant Angell and Caporal De Hange, both of whom are mentioned in the war diary for the 2e compagnie de skieurs.

It would be good to know what other books out there that, like Damien's sterling work, have researched the North Russia Expeditionary Force, albeit on the nations other than Britain and Commonwealth. I have come across a history of the 339th US Infantry that is online and in the public domain.

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James A Pratt III

The site that deals with WW I era armor is the  Landships  forum see landships.activeboard.com

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James A Pratt III

I would also like to point out in the RFC/RNAS/RAF during the WW I period if a pilot or aircrew was involved in an air combat he would have made a combat report when they got back to base. Also note the RFC/RNAS/RAF were the biggest overclaimers of WW I. see theaerodrome.com 

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wrightdw
On 29/07/2017 at 04:51, alf mcm said:

  I am also interested local Doctor John Boyd Michie, G.P. at Whitburn. He reported for duty with the R.A.M.C. at Blackpool on 29th October 1918, and sailed for Russia soon after the Armistice. He died in Russia on 30th December 1918.

 

  I was wondering if your research uncovered any details about Lt. Michie, such as how and where he died, and which R.A.M.C. unit he was attached to.

 

 

Regards,

Alf McM

 

Hi Alf,

 

I found some more on Michie in my travels:

 

https://www.edinburghs-war.ed.ac.uk/WestLothian/People/Dr-John-Boyd-Michie

 

https://www.edinburghs-war.ed.ac.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_Dr_Michie_obit.pdf

 

 

Michie died N Russia.jpg

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alf mcm

Thanks Damien,

  One of the items you attached states that John went to Russia with the 2/10 Royal Scots, implying that he was their Medical Officer. He wasn't their M.O., and the unit/hospital he was attached to remains a mystery to me.

  It's a very good photograph of him.

 

Regards,

 

Alf

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James A Pratt III

for more on RFC/RNAS/RAF claims and German losses go to theaerodrome.com and go to the 100 years ago posts.

 

Another reason why I don't think the battleship Petropavlosk did not receive any damage of note in the 1919 CMB attack. The Soviets in the Russian Civil war period and the years after this just did not have the money, men or material to do major repair jobs note the battleship Poltava a sister of the Petropavlosk the ship had a bad fire in 1919 and was never repaired. see the wiki bio on this ship and her sisters.

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James A Pratt III

As for WW I airmen being less than honest:

Rene Fonck top Allied ace of WW I one of his few friends said of him "Does not always tell the truth..."

 

Bert Hall go to the youtube presentation by the league of WW I aviation historians "The Bad Boy Bert Hall"

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David Filsell

It's known as a Bishop's move by the unbelieving.ng 

 

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wrightdw

A review which appeared in the 'Society of Friends of the National Army Museum' Book Review Supplement:

 

SOFNAM-1.jpg


SOFNAM-2.jpg

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Tim Foley

Great reviews Damien and I look forward to reading the book - congratulations.

Having recently released a book about Tom Crean I can confirm that my research discovered that he too was among Shackleton's men who served in the North Russian Expeditionary force. He served as Boatswain aboard HMS Fox between 14th March 1919 to 30th October 1919 and the crew were aware of the officer who'd served with Scott and Shackleton - confirmed in a letter sent by a crew member when Fox was stuck fast in the ice in May '19 while the ship was making her way to Archangel from Murmansk

Other references confirm his presence and activity whilst at Dvina and at one stage Frank Worsley was welcomed aboard so these two Antarctic colleagues were reunited in the Arctic. All references are listed in the back matter.  I'm uncertain as to whether Shackleton recommended him for service as he did others but it would seem likely wouldn't you say? 

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wrightdw
On 24/04/2019 at 06:47, Tim Foley said:

Great reviews Damien and I look forward to reading the book - congratulations.

Having recently released a book about Tom Crean I can confirm that my research discovered that he too was among Shackleton's men who served in the North Russian Expeditionary force. He served as Boatswain aboard HMS Fox between 14th March 1919 to 30th October 1919 and the crew were aware of the officer who'd served with Scott and Shackleton - confirmed in a letter sent by a crew member when Fox was stuck fast in the ice in May '19 while the ship was making her way to Archangel from Murmansk

Other references confirm his presence and activity whilst at Dvina and at one stage Frank Worsley was welcomed aboard so these two Antarctic colleagues were reunited in the Arctic. All references are listed in the back matter.  I'm uncertain as to whether Shackleton recommended him for service as he did others but it would seem likely wouldn't you say? 

 

Hi Tom, what a wonderful discovery that Tom Crean also served in North Russia. That means of the six men onboard whaleboat James Caird during the epic journey from Elephant Island to South Georgia, Shackleton, Worsley and Crean all later served in North Russia 1918-19. Crean is conspicuous by his lack of recognition however, almost all the other 'polar men' who served in Russia were recognised with awards however Crean did not receive so much as a 'Mention in Dispatches'? HMS Fox was the depot ship of the NREF - North Russia Expeditionary Force and many naval personnel who had duties elsewhere (especially for service with the Royal Navy flotilla operating on the Dvina River) were posted on Fox's books. That brings the total known polar explorers who subsequently served in North Russia 1918-19 to thirteen (fourteen if including New Zealander Charles Carr, DFC, AFC who was pilot on Quest expedition), a disproportionate number given the small number of polar explorers serving in uniform.

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wrightdw
Posted (edited)

Recently discovered images showing a rather overgrown and sad looking CWGC Archangel Allied Cemetery (229 burials) and Special Memorials for those whose graves are unknown or buried in outlying areas (222). Images taken 1976. Admittedly this was during the late stages of the Cold War but still a sad sight. The gaps between headstones are mostly the graves of US troops who following Washington policy to repatriate US war dead to their homeland were exhumed and returned home when the US withdrew  from North Russia mid-1919 and during subsequent diplomatic missions before WW2 to recover US burials in outlying areas. The British policy has always been to bury their war dead in the country where they died.

 

It is interesting to note that even though most of these men died in North Russia after the Armistice, most during the summer 1919 offensives against the Red Army, the main plaque still states those that died 'FELL DURING THE GREAT WAR', the Special Memorial plaques to unknown British soldiers also state 'A SOLDIER OF THE GREAT WAR'.

 

61535150_2730604703622721_2185905510601981952_o.jpg

61432195_2730604800289378_8435129290453942272_o.jpg

61377361_2730604836956041_1054293035262672896_o.jpg

61391328_2730606576955867_2174215868047687680_o.jpg

61587960_2730604646956060_2217441612915539968_n.jpg

62080503_2730599363623255_2704830374202048512_o.jpg

Edited by wrightdw

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alf mcm
Posted (edited)

Damian,

 Many thanks for sharing these photographs. I had wondered what the cemetery looked like. I wonder if it looks any better today.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

Edited by alf mcm

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2ndCMR
Posted (edited)

Google doth provide.

 

 

Edited by 2ndCMR

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Pat Twomey
On 13/06/2019 at 10:07, alf mcm said:

I wonder if it looks any better today?

 

 

It did look much better when I visited Archangel in 2008 - you can see a description of the visit here

 

Pat

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alf mcm

Thanks Pat,

  The description of your visIt was extremely interesting.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

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