Churchill's Secret War WIth Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918-20

[James A Pratt III]

Glad to be of help Daimen. I got the book Russian and Soviet Battleships by ILL in the US some years ago and xeroxed off the pages. You might be able to contact the author either through Warship or Warship International Magazines. This work is the book on the subject.

[GrenPen]

Some augmented indexing, in reference to the French and Italian elements, would benefit the second edition.

Also, there was an assumption in the book that the French battalion of troops for overseas service (21e Battailon de Marche Infanterie Coloniale) were themselves from overseas territories which was not the case,(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troupes_coloniales). In Anglo-Saxon terms, they are more akin to the European regiments of the HEIC prior to 1857.

As I understand it, the American and Italian contingents were armed with Moisin Nagant rifles made by Westinghouse. I am sure that I recently read that one party (deliberately ambiguous) of Royal Marine Light Infantry were similarly equipped.

[SteveMarsdin]

Good morning All,

 

The 21e Battailon de Marche Infanterie Coloniale were from mainland France but there were a few non-French colonial troops in Siberia. Although prominently European, the Colonial Corps battalion in Siberia did include some who weren't from mainland France:

 

Although the JMO on the MemoiresdesHommes site http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/inventaires/ead_ir_consult.php?a=4&ref=SHDGR__GR_26_N_II

from which these extracts are taken refers to Bataillon Coloniale Sibérien I cant find the  full JMO for 21e Battailon de Marche Infanterie Coloniale, just one for the 2e compagnie de skieurs

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/inventaires/ead_ir_consult.php?a=4&ref=SHDGR__GR_26_N_II

 

Steve

[GrenPen]

Hi Steve,

I have replied to your interesting post, albeit on a different thread, with a view to staying on the topic of Damien's book.

One thing I will say, though, is that Damien's book does refer to a reconnaissance party involving both Lieutenant Angell and Caporal De Hange, both of whom are mentioned in the war diary for the 2e compagnie de skieurs.

It would be good to know what other books out there that, like Damien's sterling work, have researched the North Russia Expeditionary Force, albeit on the nations other than Britain and Commonwealth. I have come across a history of the 339th US Infantry that is online and in the public domain.

[James A Pratt III]

The site that deals with WW I era armor is the  Landships  forum see landships.activeboard.com

[James A Pratt III]

I would also like to point out in the RFC/RNAS/RAF during the WW I period if a pilot or aircrew was involved in an air combat he would have made a combat report when they got back to base. Also note the RFC/RNAS/RAF were the biggest overclaimers of WW I. see theaerodrome.com 

[wrightdw]

On 29/07/2017 at 04:51, alf mcm said:

  I am also interested local Doctor John Boyd Michie, G.P. at Whitburn. He reported for duty with the R.A.M.C. at Blackpool on 29^th October 1918, and sailed for Russia soon after the Armistice. He died in Russia on 30^th December 1918.

 

  I was wondering if your research uncovered any details about Lt. Michie, such as how and where he died, and which R.A.M.C. unit he was attached to.

 

 

Regards,

Alf McM

 

Hi Alf,

 

I found some more on Michie in my travels:

 

https://www.edinburghs-war.ed.ac.uk/WestLothian/People/Dr-John-Boyd-Michie

 

https://www.edinburghs-war.ed.ac.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_Dr_Michie_obit.pdf

 

 

[alf mcm]

Thanks Damien,

  One of the items you attached states that John went to Russia with the 2/10 Royal Scots, implying that he was their Medical Officer. He wasn't their M.O., and the unit/hospital he was attached to remains a mystery to me.

  It's a very good photograph of him.

 

Regards,

 

Alf

[James A Pratt III]

for more on RFC/RNAS/RAF claims and German losses go to theaerodrome.com and go to the 100 years ago posts.

 

Another reason why I don't think the battleship Petropavlosk did not receive any damage of note in the 1919 CMB attack. The Soviets in the Russian Civil war period and the years after this just did not have the money, men or material to do major repair jobs note the battleship Poltava a sister of the Petropavlosk the ship had a bad fire in 1919 and was never repaired. see the wiki bio on this ship and her sisters.

[James A Pratt III]

As for WW I airmen being less than honest:

Rene Fonck top Allied ace of WW I one of his few friends said of him "Does not always tell the truth..."

 

Bert Hall go to the youtube presentation by the league of WW I aviation historians "The Bad Boy Bert Hall"

[David Filsell]

It's known as a Bishop's move by the unbelieving.ng 

 

[wrightdw]

A review which appeared in the 'Society of Friends of the National Army Museum' Book Review Supplement:

 

[Guest]

Great reviews Damien and I look forward to reading the book - congratulations.

Having recently released a book about Tom Crean I can confirm that my research discovered that he too was among Shackleton's men who served in the North Russian Expeditionary force. He served as Boatswain aboard HMS Fox between 14th March 1919 to 30th October 1919 and the crew were aware of the officer who'd served with Scott and Shackleton - confirmed in a letter sent by a crew member when Fox was stuck fast in the ice in May '19 while the ship was making her way to Archangel from Murmansk

Other references confirm his presence and activity whilst at Dvina and at one stage Frank Worsley was welcomed aboard so these two Antarctic colleagues were reunited in the Arctic. All references are listed in the back matter.  I'm uncertain as to whether Shackleton recommended him for service as he did others but it would seem likely wouldn't you say? 

[wrightdw]

On 24/04/2019 at 06:47, Tim Foley said:

Great reviews Damien and I look forward to reading the book - congratulations.

Having recently released a book about Tom Crean I can confirm that my research discovered that he too was among Shackleton's men who served in the North Russian Expeditionary force. He served as Boatswain aboard HMS Fox between 14th March 1919 to 30th October 1919 and the crew were aware of the officer who'd served with Scott and Shackleton - confirmed in a letter sent by a crew member when Fox was stuck fast in the ice in May '19 while the ship was making her way to Archangel from Murmansk

Other references confirm his presence and activity whilst at Dvina and at one stage Frank Worsley was welcomed aboard so these two Antarctic colleagues were reunited in the Arctic. All references are listed in the back matter.  I'm uncertain as to whether Shackleton recommended him for service as he did others but it would seem likely wouldn't you say? 

 

Hi Tom, what a wonderful discovery that Tom Crean also served in North Russia. That means of the six men onboard whaleboat James Caird during the epic journey from Elephant Island to South Georgia, Shackleton, Worsley and Crean all later served in North Russia 1918-19. Crean is conspicuous by his lack of recognition however, almost all the other 'polar men' who served in Russia were recognised with awards however Crean did not receive so much as a 'Mention in Dispatches'? HMS Fox was the depot ship of the NREF - North Russia Expeditionary Force and many naval personnel who had duties elsewhere (especially for service with the Royal Navy flotilla operating on the Dvina River) were posted on Fox's books. That brings the total known polar explorers who subsequently served in North Russia 1918-19 to thirteen (fourteen if including New Zealander Charles Carr, DFC, AFC who was pilot on Quest expedition), a disproportionate number given the small number of polar explorers serving in uniform.

[wrightdw]

Recently discovered images showing a rather overgrown and sad looking CWGC Archangel Allied Cemetery (229 burials) and Special Memorials for those whose graves are unknown or buried in outlying areas (222). Images taken 1976. Admittedly this was during the late stages of the Cold War but still a sad sight. The gaps between headstones are mostly the graves of US troops who following Washington policy to repatriate US war dead to their homeland were exhumed and returned home when the US withdrew  from North Russia mid-1919 and during subsequent diplomatic missions before WW2 to recover US burials in outlying areas. The British policy has always been to bury their war dead in the country where they died.

 

It is interesting to note that even though most of these men died in North Russia after the Armistice, most during the summer 1919 offensives against the Red Army, the main plaque still states those that died 'FELL DURING THE GREAT WAR', the Special Memorial plaques to unknown British soldiers also state 'A SOLDIER OF THE GREAT WAR'.

 

Edited 13 June , 2019 by wrightdw

[alf mcm]

Damian,

 Many thanks for sharing these photographs. I had wondered what the cemetery looked like. I wonder if it looks any better today.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

Edited 28 August , 2019 by alf mcm

[2ndCMR]

Google doth provide.

 

 

Edited 20 June , 2019 by 2ndCMR

[Pat Twomey]

On 13/06/2019 at 10:07, alf mcm said:

I wonder if it looks any better today?

 

 

It did look much better when I visited Archangel in 2008 - you can see a description of the visit here

 

Pat

[alf mcm]

Thanks Pat,

  The description of your visIt was extremely interesting.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[wrightdw]

Broadcast on ABC Australia (footage length 6 minutes): Grave of lost Australian Victoria Cross hero Sam Pearse discovered in Russia 100 years later:

 

https://www.abc.net.au/7.30/remains-of-long-lost-australian-digger-sam-pearse/11544588

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 October , 2019 by wrightdw

[wrightdw]

Some 'Railway Front' battlefield finds from my trip in August shown in the TV article linked in the previous post.

 

The battlefield remained untouched for nearly 100 years until local Archangel historian Alexey Sukhanovsky (he can be seen in the TV article) and a team of battlefield archaeologists began thoroughly surveying and excavating the old trenches and blockhouses just over 10 years ago.

 

The items found by Alexey and his team were curated and turned into a museum about the Allied intervention in North Russia at Archangel.

 

The old trenches were never filled in and the trench lines are still visible.

 

Alexey was even able to map the progress of the Australian attack of 29th August 1919 by following the trail of .303 cases with his metal detector.

 

One quickly learns the Russian word for mosquito ('komaru') in the forests of North Russia, they were incredible but I am assured nothing like the swarms in June.

 

Interestingly the Russian word for "blockhouse" is "blockhouse".

[wrightdw]

And some images of the excellent museum.

 

The equipment found is mostly British, French and US.

US troops in North Russia used Russian Mosin-Nagant rifles produced in the US under license by Westinghouse for the Imperial Russian Army however the contract was never fulfilled due to the Revolution. The rifles were chambered in Russian 7.62x54 cartridges which littered the forest floor at the frontline of 1919-19. Those found would almost all have been fired by US troops against the Red Army.

Edited 22 January , 2020 by wrightdw

[Waggoner]

Damian,

 

Have you come across a Captain Selby Norton, RASC? His MIC shows his first theatre was North Russia on 5 October 1918. I looked through your book for a reference to him but without success.

 

All the best,

 

Gary

[James A Pratt III]

Very interesting Damien. On youtube at the US National WW I museum and memorial there is a presentation on the Polar Bear Expedition by James Nelson on the US intervention in North Russia based on the book by the presenter. I think the presentation could have been better.

[wrightdw]

On 10/02/2020 at 12:10, Waggoner said:

Damian,

 

Have you come across a Captain Selby Norton, RASC? His MIC shows his first theatre was North Russia on 5 October 1918. I looked through your book for a reference to him but without success.

 

All the best,

 

Gary

 

Hi Gary,

 

I had a quick search through my records: decorations, MID's, Imperial Russian gongs, WIA's, mentions in original source material but couldn't find anything on him.

 

His arrival date would suggest service with ELOPE Force at Archangel just before the Dvina River froze over. Not definitive but a hunch.