Ataturk tribute to fallen at Anzac gone

[trajan]

On 12/2/2017 at 11:06, Crunchy said:

Perhaps a lesson in not jumping to conclusions too soon. Nice to see the restoration work. We should remember it is their country and we invaded it. We should be grateful the Turkish people allow us to have the memorials we have, and restore their memorial which commemorates our dead.

 

Jumping to conclusions? Yes and no. You don't live here and do not see what happens here and how their own heritage is mis-managed - and is now being managed (as is to be expected) for political reasons... As for restoration - well, we all know by now that the so-called Ataturk quote is 'Fake news' - it was never said...  Funny, though, how the "Turkish people allow us to have the memorials we have, and restore their memorial which commemorates our dead", when Cannakkale apart, there is no single monument never mind any village one to commemorate their own dead... T

 

22 hours ago, michaeldr said:

.. There is a column in today's newspaper which explains how, after a certain hiatus, Atatürk is becoming (shall we say) fashionable again in Turkey ..

 

An election must be coming up... 

 

Seriously, I have the greatest respect for Mustafa Kemal as probably the single most efficient brigade and above commander in the Ottoman Empire in WW1. He quite rightly resigned his command in 1917/18 when faced with the debacle in Palestine. Came back again when all was almost lost. His efforts to drag Turkey into European levels in the 1920's are beyond compare. So, shall we say. a Churchillesque figure that others need to nail colours to?

 

[emrezmen]

Yet another disingenuous, botched renovation/restoration work. Notice how the texts in Turkish and English are different from each other. "No difference between Johnnies and Mehmets" part is missing in Turkish version (of course there is no such sentence in Atatürk's original message. This is in fact something to be discussed
but that's not the point at the moment). This was the same before and not changed after so-called renovation. Are they really stupid or they making a fool of people?

Edited 3 December , 2017 by emrezmen

[gilly100]

Given some of the above more recent posts of those that reside in Turkey, perhaps I might ask. What are the chances that Ottoman Turkey's then ally, Germany, might get some form of memorial placed on the peninsula to recognise German involvement and sacrifice? Or is there somewhere already that I am unaware of?

Ian

[trajan]

I don't know of any such monument, but I would guess none exists and there won't be one there in the near future... Current relations with Germany apart, in Turkey, the German involvement at Gallipoli (and in the GW in general) is played down to a very large extent.

 

Trajan

[gilly100]

Thanks Trajan

As I and no doubt others suspected. A shame and no doubt deserves rectifying. Also appears to be reflected in the TGSA "works" on Gallipoli. Dare not say official history for fear of rebuke.

Ian

[michaeldr]

Ian,

 

As far as I know there is nothing on the peninsula itself by way of a memorial to the German contribution
I suspect that the closest will be their cemetery at Tarabya - see Klaus Wolf's old thread here 

The Austro-Hungarian Empire also contributed artillery but I do not have any details about their casualties (if any?)

regards

Michael

Edited 4 December , 2017 by michaeldr

[gilly100]

Thanks Michael

That prompted me back to an old thread on German Gallipoli casualties that Klaus started in 2007 where he mentions a lack of a fitting memorial, the one on Kilia Liman having been taken down, whenever, I do not know. I wonder if a complete German casualty list was ever compiled, if at all possible?

Cheers

Ian

 

[michaeldr]

4 hours ago, gilly100 said:

I wonder if a complete German casualty list was ever compiled, if at all possible?

 

I don't believe so, Ian
Reference to Klaus Woolf's web site gives only approximate  figures for German participation
In his section 'German graves around Gallipoli' he mentions a figure of “about 1500” being involved and he gives the figure for the fallen as “probably 200” *

see http://www.gallipoli1915.de/info-1-c1w6z

[Klaus' own English version is incomplete, so I used Google to translate the German page; not perfect but manageable]

 

regards

Michael

 

edit to add - * On page 36 of his 2015 lecture, Klaus gives the figure as 250 - see http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/921bc6_92d023388ccc47a6a32fae2e878a7df1.pdf

 

Edited 5 December , 2017 by michaeldr

[emrezmen]

4 hours ago, gilly100 said:

I wonder if a complete German casualty list was ever compiled, if at all possible?

 

There is a list shared in a well-known Turkish Gallipoli/WW1 site. (Not sure if this is what you are looking for)

 

[trajan]

2 hours ago, emrezmen said:

 

There is a list shared in a well-known Turkish Gallipoli/WW1 site. (Not sure if this is what you are looking for)

 

Maybe not what others were looking for but certainly useful to have this list!

 

On an associated and perhaps directly linked topic - emrezmen, are you familiar with this article I have found a reference to? "Deutsche Offiziere in der Türkei, Reichsarchiv, 1940" possibly the same as “Türkiye’de Alman Askerî Misyonu Subaylar-Generaller-Heyetler”, Belgelerle Türk Tarihi Dergisi, 1986-1987. I intend to look for it at the weekend...

 

 

[gilly100]

Thanks Emrezmen, it all helps.

Ian

[trajan]

21 hours ago, trajan said:

... On an associated and perhaps directly linked topic - emrezmen, are you familiar with this article I have found a reference to? "Deutsche Offiziere in der Türkei, Reichsarchiv, 1940" possibly the same as “Türkiye’de Alman Askerî Misyonu Subaylar-Generaller-Heyetler”, Belgelerle Türk Tarihi Dergisi, 1986-1987. I intend to look for it at the weekend...

 

Not exactly on- or off-topic, but - a book reference indicates that "Deutsche Offiziere..." exists in manuscript form only, and that there is a copy in the Turkish General Staff Directorate of History [ATASE] Library, Ankara. As for "Türkiye’de Alman...", nothing of value there.