Ataturk tribute to fallen at Anzac gone

[trajan]

I have to admit that it is odd the way the face has been removed leaving the support in place, and so yes, another text to come. But what exactly? And what about the other memorials? By the way, the Embassy here has acknowledged my communication on this matter and so hopefully they will share any further information with me and I can pass it on here. Oh, and just in case anyone wondered, it is a 700+ km drive from here to Gallipoli and so no, I can't go and personally check!  

[michaeldr]

Something of the background to the Monoliths can be gleaned from this thesis 

http://library.iyte.edu.tr/tezler/doktora/mimarlik/T000672.pdf

 

According to the 'Guidebook of Gallipoli Historic Site' [2015, Ministry of Culture & Tourism, ISBN 978 975 17 3827 1]

since "14th November 1980 the monoliths were registered as cultural heritage under the protection of the Ministry of Culture"

see p.165

[Auimfo]

After a recent question about this issue, a friend of mine received this response from Brendan NELSON, the Director of the Australian War Memorial.  I have been given permission to share the contents.  I think most of us can probably read between the lines..........

Our military history team have been able to confirm that efforts are underway by the Turkish Government to restore and, in some instances modernise, Turkish memorials on the Gallipoli Peninsula as outlined in the linked Facebook post. There are a number of similarly designed Turkish memorials and whilst we do not have any specific current information on the Ariburnu ‘Ataturk’ memorial being restored, we have no reason to doubt the account of McLachlan Tour’s historian. 

A number of other memorials on Gallipoli have already undergone restoration or modernisation and whilst the changes perhaps aren’t ones we as Australians would choose, they are Turkish memorials and should reflect the Turkish experience as they see it 100 years on. Ultimately, whilst Ataturk’s words continue to resonate across the Commonwealth, and especially here in Australia, this is a Turkish memorial and it is up to the Turkish Government and people to manage it. 

I note that we have seen no reports of any issues with any of the memorials, cemeteries or headstones relating to Allied personnel on Gallipoli that are managed by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

[Fedelmar]

If you have facebook you can read the comments here ...

The link is for Mat Mclachlan's Battlefield Tours.

Battlefield tours.

[michaeldr]

I am happy to pass on the following message which I have just received from our GWF Pal Eceabat

 

.................................................................................................................................................................................

 

 

Hi, Bill Sellars here. I have asked Michael to post this as I am having difficulty accessing my forum account.

 

For those of you who do not know me, I am an Australian who has lived in Turkey for almost 22 years, and for more than 15 of those on the Gallipoli Peninsula.

 

As those who do know me can attest, I have often been at odds with the actions of the Turkish state agencies – formerly the Gallipoli Peninsula National Park Authority under the Forestry Ministry and now the Culture and Tourism Ministry’s Canakkale Savaslari Gelibolu Tarihi Alan Baskanligi (Canakkale Wars Gallipoli Historical Regional Directorate) – that have had authority over this area.

 

However, fair play when due, the fury over the renovation of the Ariburnu memorial is a beat up from beginning to end.

 

Having been in contact with two people involved in this project – neither of whom are state employees but who serve as advisors to the directorate – I can confirm what has been out in the public domain here in Turkey for a long time.

 

The Ariburnu Memorial, as is the case for all the other similar monoliths on the battlefields, is being restored. The stone cladding had been removed and will be replaced in the exact same form as the original.

 

These memorials were erected in the 1980s and have worn over the years, with some of the wording falling off and stones discolouring.

For those of you who speak Turkish, here is the notification of the restoration project on the Culture Ministry’s website, including photos of the work being undertaken. This was posted on 26 May.

 

http://catab.kulturturizm.gov.tr/TR,180367/tarihi-alanda-yer-alan-kitabeler-yenileniyor.html

 

Adding to the problem, the Ariburnu memorial was damaged more than two years ago when thieves stole the bronze mask of Ataturk, part of a much wider pillaging of metals in the region that included the Ross Bastian plaques, since replaced due to Ross’ hard work.

 

If this is a plot against Mustafa Kemal, why are they also removing the old stone and then replacing it with new on memorials on which his name does not appear?

 

There is no question of any Allied memorial or cemetery being affected by this work, as has been made clear by officials.

 

This issue has been discussed in the UK paper The Guardian on June 16, the link below.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/16/turkish-islamist-push-may-be-to-blame-for-removal-of-ataturk-inscription-at-anzac-cove

 

A note on Peter Stanley’s comment on the increasing Islamisation of historic interpretation, in saying that:

 

“Because the Erdoğan government is in power, Islamists are now in the ascendant – as the new Gaba Tepe interpretative centre [at Gallipoli] shows. It depicts Turkey’s 86,000 Gallipoli dead as “martyrs”, dying in a fight against Christian invaders.”

Depicting the Turkish (read Ottoman) fallen of the campaign as martyrs is nothing new and has been the case for as long as I have know the battlefields, having first come in the late 1980s. Indeed, anyone who dies while in service of the Turkish state is described as being a martyr, and that can include the postman knocked off his bike in a road accident through to a soldier killed in action.

 

That said, the Gabatepe centre is rubbish, and is overtly political, but let us not forget that many Allied soldiers wrote of being on a great crusade when heading to Gallipoli.

 

While there have been a number of moves to reinterpret Turkey’s history, including downplaying the role of Ataturk in it, the present work on the peninsula is not part of those efforts.

 

The current work on the memorials is to replace and restore, not to rewrite.

 

Bill Sellars

Eceabat

Canakkale

 

…..................................................................................................................................................................

 

 

 

 

Can I add a postscript here on the subject the Turkish use of the word 'Martyr'

 

It was an interesting experience in Istanbul last month trying to work the machines and buy tickets for the Metro & city transport system; we got there in the end (with the help of a Policeman in one instance)

What was striking about the table of tariffs (when it was available in English) was the use of the word 'Martyr' indicating discounts available to the widows, children and family members of deceased service personnel

 

In short, the Turkish use of the word Martyr should not be equated with the Anglo-Saxon/Christian use of the same word;

in Turkey it seems to have a much broader application.

 

Thanks Bill for your clarification here

 

regards

Michael

Edited 16 June , 2017 by michaeldr

[Phil Wood]

Good news!  Knowing Bill I am sure he would not be pulling his punches if some reworking of history was taking place under the guidance of the current regime. 

 

Thanks Bill if you're reading this!

[Phil Wood]

The work  continues:  

 

[Edit - there are times when I wonder what I have been smoking! I can only quess that I had aimed to add one of Ramazan's photos and inserted gobbldegook instead???]

Edited 27 September , 2017 by Phil Wood

[Fedelmar]

Further comment on facebook here.
 

 

[moggs]

I am very happy to read all of this.  Thank you to all who have followed things through and found the truth.

 

Jonathan

 

 

 

[Peter Bennett]

Typical of people posting hostile judgemental comments without finding out the full facts !

[gilly100]

Thanks Bill and Michael for adding this important clarification. Good news indeed.

Ian

[Wendy Macpherson]

Yes well I had a few hostile comments until I thought better of it and googled the story.

It was really weird but I felt quite off kilter and got a feeling in my gut of loss.

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's words are very touching and thought provoking.

 

"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives…
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours…
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace, after having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Ataturk, 1934

 

 

Edited 17 June , 2017 by Wendy Macpherson

[trajan]

2 hours ago, Peter Bennett said:

Typical of people posting hostile judgemental comments without finding out the full facts !

 

Yes and no... If you live in Turkey or have any in-depth experience of the country, you would easily come pretty fast to the worse conclusion on this matter. Examples abound... So, for example, the campaign indirectly supported by the government to make the HS in Istanbul a mosque again, as has been done with the HS in Trabzon, whose excellent frescoes - so carefully and skilfully restored in the 1950's/60's - are now obscured from general view. 

 

On the plus side (I think1), note, incidentally, how the damaged monument left open to view originally is now covered with some form of green fabric barrier (posts 33 and 34), which suggests to me the local authorities have been made very much aware of the angst the sight of the monument as was gave birth to.

[seaJane]

33 minutes ago, trajan said:

HS in Trabzon, whose excellent frescoes - so carefully and skilfully restored in the 1950's/60's - are now obscured from general view

Oh no! I'm so glad I was able to photograph those when we went there.

[michaeldr]

41 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

Yes and no... If you live in Turkey or have any in-depth experience of the country, you would easily come pretty fast to the worse conclusion on this matter. Examples abound... So, for example, the campaign indirectly supported by the government to make the HS in Istanbul a mosque again, as has been done with the HS in Trabzon, whose excellent frescoes - so carefully and skilfully restored in the 1950's/60's - are now obscured from general view. 

 

On the plus side (I think1), note, incidentally, how the damaged monument left open to view originally is now covered with some form of green fabric barrier (posts 33 and 34), which suggests to me the local authorities have been made very much aware of the angst the sight of the monument as was gave birth to.

 

I am 100% with Julian on this

I visit Turkey as often as I can

and have family members who have lived and grown up there

I also have friends who live there today

 

I read a Turkish newspaper practically everyday

 

Alas, it is all too easy today to jump to conclusions: some right and some not so right

 

I have no problems with the original post here

and I am glad that we have received the clarifications which we have

 

I hope that in the fullness of time we will also see posts of the fully restored Monoliths with Ataturk's generous words of comfort proudly displayed

 

[michaeldr]

On 6/16/2017 at 15:01, michaeldr said:

It was an interesting experience in Istanbul last month trying to work the machines and buy tickets for the Metro & city transport system; we got there in the end (with the help of a Policeman in one instance)

What was striking about the table of tariffs (when it was available in English) was the use of the word 'Martyr' indicating discounts available to the widows, children and family members of deceased service personnel

 

There are eleven catagories of discounted fares

Number six is for, quote – Martyr's Parents Card, and Martyr's Widow and Kids Card

see http://istanbulkart.iett.istanbul/en/istanbulkart/pages/travel-cards-usage-areas/440

[Also note the difference with Number eleven, quote – Veteran Card and Veteran Spouse Card]

 

Please try not to miss-translate the Turkish use of the word Martyr

In Turkish, it seems to have a much broader useage than that usual in Anglo-Saxon and Christian, English-speaking communities

[Auimfo]

I was as concerned as most others, so the news is good to hear and glad it's been clarified.  

 

Cheers,

Tim L.

[michaeldr]

A further statement of reassurance has appeared on Twitter

 

 

Edited 18 June , 2017 by michaeldr

[Gareth Davies]

On 11/06/2017 at 11:36, Gareth Davies said:

Ian

 

I think you and I got the photo you posted and the text I posted from the same source, a source that I trust.

 

I was clearly wrong to trust the source.

[gilly100]

Yes Gareth. I thought similarly also, although I probably could have double checked elsewhere. Bottom line is, after lesson learned on fearing the worst without further checks, the truth was surprisingly positive. Good news in the end. Won't be the last time I thought wrong about something! That's how we learn!

Ian

[Gareth Davies]

Yes.

[Steven Broomfield]

On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 12:11, trajan said:

 

Yes and no... If you live in Turkey or have any in-depth experience of the country, you would easily come pretty fast to the worse conclusion on this matter. Examples abound... So, for example, the campaign indirectly supported by the government to make the HS in Istanbul a mosque again, as has been done with the HS in Trabzon, whose excellent frescoes - so carefully and skilfully restored in the 1950's/60's - are now obscured from general view. 

 

 

 

HS?

[trajan]

Just now, Steven Broomfield said:

 

HS?

 

Haghia Sofia, aka Aya Sofya.

[Steven Broomfield]

Ah. Now I know.

[michaeldr]

On 6/17/2017 at 14:11, trajan said:

 If you live in Turkey or have any in-depth experience of the country, you would easily come pretty fast to the worse conclusion on this matter. Examples abound... So, for example, the campaign indirectly supported by the government to make the HS in Istanbul a mosque again, as has been done with the HS in Trabzon, whose excellent frescoes - so carefully and skilfully restored in the 1950's/60's - are now obscured from general view. 

 

Drifting slightly Off-Topic, but further details on the current situation of HS from today's newspaper

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/centuries-old-hagia-sophia-must-defy-arguments.aspx?pageID=449&nID=114747&NewsCatID=422