German cemeteries on the Western Front

[phil andrade]

Hello Jan,

 

Thanks for coming to my assistance.

 

That number that I cited - 220,000 - does not appear to have any official provenance or endorsement.  It looks like a guess to me ....albeit a fairly informed one.  It does not break down into sectors.

 

I suppose that one might extrapolate from the British experience, which is meticulously recorded. 

 

If the British were unable to recover one quarter of their dead, then it seems reasonable to assume that the Germans lost a greater proportion than that ; especially given the indifference and - perhaps - hostility of the local population .

 

Losing a war must make access and recovery more difficult : whether this be for Confederate soldiers in the American Civil War, German soldiers in the Great War, or German soldiers in Russia from the Second World War.

 

On the other hand, the saga of the Pheasant Wood burials reveals that - when circumstances allowed - Germans were more meticulous and assiduous in battlefield clearance than their allied counterparts when it came to burying and recording the dead.

If this applied to their enemies, it was surely very much the case for their own dead.

 

Phil

[AOK4]

Phil,

 

They were extremely meticulous, even recording reports of men whose bodies could not be recovered. These lists (with often maps) were to be used after the war to search for the dead. Even though the lists ended up in Belgian hands, nothing was done with them...

 

As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm preparing some books about this subject in the not so distant future...

 

Jan

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

I can confirm Jan's statement regarding the Germans being meticulous. I have several dozen maps with the exact location and names of German war dead that were sketched after their burials. These are such that if a body was still missing, it would not be impossible to locate them.

 

Ralph

[AliceF]

Hi,

 

I still try to figure out how many German war dead are buried in Volksbund cemeteries (WW1 only). Does anyone know?

Have only seen numbers for WW1 and WW2 (2.6 or 2.7 mio) according to the Volksbund website.

 

Christine

[RobertBr]

Sue

 

At LAURENT-BLANGY NE of Arras there is the British BAILLEUL ROAD EAST CEMETERY, with a few hundred graves. Just a short walk down the adjacent track is a German cemetery with its rows of black crosses. In the middle is an open area,a mass grave,  containing something like 22,000 burials.

 

Bob

 

Photo from my own collection

Edited 4 August , 2017 by RobertBr
Photo attribution

[charlie2]

9 hours ago, AliceF said:

Hi,

 

I still try to figure out how many German war dead are buried in Volksbund cemeteries (WW1 only). Does anyone know?

Have only seen numbers for WW1 and WW2 (2.6 or 2.7 mio) according to the Volksbund website.

 

Christine

 

The figures given by the Volksbund are in reply 16.

 

Charlie

[AliceF]

1 hour ago, charlie2 said:

 

The figures given by the Volksbund are in reply 16.

 

Charlie

 

Thanks, Charlie, of course.

Wikipedia gives the number of German soldiers killed at the Western Front with about 1.5 mio.

The number of soldiers buried in Volksbund cemeteries is according to post #16 about 900,000 German soldiers.

Then there are burials in British cemeteries  - and French cemeteries I suppose. But there would still more than 500,000 German soldiers be buried somewhere else or missing? 

Christine

[AOK4]

6 hours ago, AliceF said:

 

Thanks, Charlie, of course.

Wikipedia gives the number of German soldiers killed at the Western Front with about 1.5 mio.

The number of soldiers buried in Volksbund cemeteries is according to post #16 about 900,000 German soldiers.

Then there are burials in British cemeteries  - and French cemeteries I suppose. But there would still more than 500,000 German soldiers be buried somewhere else or missing? 

Christine

 

German cemeteries on the Eastern Front f.i. are still not under Volksbund care, most of them are still there but are in the process of being taken over. In Russia itself, a lot of the cemeteries seem to have been destroyed (mainly after WW2?). I don't know whether the number of WW1 military graves in Germany itself is also added into the number?

 

Now I see you just are mentioning the Western Front. I don't know how reliable the figure on wikipedia is.

[phil andrade]

Nine hundred thousand German soldiers from 1914-18 are known to be buried in military cemeteries in France and Belgium. There have to be several hundred thousand more who were either never buried at all, or who were buried, but whose graves were subsequently lost or destroyed.

 

A million and a half  German dead for the Western Front 1914-18 is a feasible estimate, but  the figure is bound to be based largely on guesswork.

 

In support of that, we have Winston Churchill's analysis in the Appendix of his World Crisis, where he hazards an estimate of 1,494,000 German deaths on the Western Front 1914-18.  His calculations certainly stand up to scrutiny.

 

Someone sent me a list of German war deaths 1914-18  compiled by the VdK, and I was surprised at how large the number is for Poland and Russia ; from memory, 400,000 in Poland and 115,000 for the former Soviet Union.  I think, though, that this is an estimate for the number of deaths rather than the actual burials....all the same, it speaks of a heavy toll taken by the Russians, 1914-17.  There are also well over sixty thousand in Romania from the Great War.

 

Phil

 

 

Edited 5 August , 2017 by phil andrade

[egbert]

Prof Krumeich, one of the most reputated German WW1 historians, who also co-chaires French Government sponsered historical associations, wrote me in a bilateral discussion about unidentified German soldiers buried as French soldiers, that the French ossuaires could house roughly up to 50% of German dead. Dead that were recovered after the war from the battlefields without any trace of their nationality. 

That would add tens of thousand German Western Front dead now "buried" in the famous French (bone-) ossuaires as French kia

Edited 5 August , 2017 by egbert

[egbert]

I have just checked my records from the discussion with Prof Krumeich. He  told me that today's French - German historians do not dispute the fact that the French ossuaires contain 50% German casualties, collected after 1919. He mentioned as an example the more famous Verdun ossuaire where some 155000 dead are stored. An estimated 70000 dead most likely are German. Interesting that these figures are accepted especially by French historians. 

Edited 5 August , 2017 by egbert

[phil andrade]

This is a topic that we've discussed before on this forum.

 

The notion that  French ossuaries contain 50% German remains is rather hard for me to believe, let alone accept.

 

Are there inscriptions on the buildings that state that these are French remains ?

 

If so, it's astonishing that such a huge contingent of German dead would be interred in these places without proper acknowledgement on the ossuary building.

 

I have visited three ossuaries - Verdun, Souchez and Mont Kemel, and IIRC all the writing that I saw specified that these were the remains of French soldiers.

 

Have the inscriptions been changed ?

 

Phil

 

 

[mva]

14 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

This is a topic that we've discussed before on this forum.

The notion that  French ossuaries contain 50% German remains is rather hard for me to believe, let alone accept.

Are there inscriptions on the buildings that state that these are French remains ?

If so, it's astonishing that such a huge contingent of German dead would be interred in these places without proper acknowledgement on the ossuary building.

I have visited three ossuaries - Verdun, Souchez and Mont Kemel, and IIRC all the writing that I saw specified that these were the remains of French soldiers.

Have the inscriptions been changed ?Phil

 

 

 

" recouvrant les restes de 130 000 soldats inconnus français et allemands " Unknown French & German - in : http://verdun2016.centenaire.org/fr/lossuaire-de-douaumont

[egbert]

Phil it is not a question of believe for you or me , it is the answer on modern day French-German historians researching this matter since a couple of years. The time is ripe today for French nationals to accept this fact. The Franco-German friendship today is strong enough to accept the research facts. The times to suppress the unthinkable is over for the two countries. Many years from now it will also be subject of discussion for the British to accept the unthinkable. But this time is not ripe , not yet. 

[Hedley Malloch]

3 hours ago, phil andrade said:

This is a topic that we've discussed before on this forum.

 

The notion that  French ossuaries contain 50% German remains is rather hard for me to believe, let alone accept.

 

Does it matter?  Does anyone begrudge them their burial?  Both French and German solders are linked together in the comradeship and anonymity of death.

 

I have always suspected that the neat, perfectly manicured lawns, and immaculate floral borders which characterise the CWG cemeteries mask a rather chaotic and disordered layout underground.

Edited 6 August , 2017 by Hedley Malloch

[mva]

and : https://www.lens14-18.com/en/homepage/, as well as : " Soldiers’ names have been inscribed in alphabetical order, with no mention of nationality or religion " (Ring of Remembrance) : https://www.lens14-18.com/en/579606-soldiers-names/

[phil andrade]

45 minutes ago, Hedley Malloch said:

 

Does it matter?  Does anyone begrudge them their burial?  Both French and German solders are linked together in the comradeship and anonymity of death.

 

I have always suspected that the neat, perfectly manicured lawns, and immaculate floral borders which characterise the CWG cemeteries mask a rather chaotic and disordered layout underground.

 

If there is an ossuary on top of Mont Kemmel, and there is an inscription telling me that 5,700 French soldiers are interred inside it, and then I discover that half of them are German, then I think it matters.

 

Not because there are Germans within ; but because I have been told otherwise.

 

Phil

[phil andrade]

1 hour ago, egbert said:

Phil it is not a question of believe for you or me , it is the answer on modern day French-German historians researching this matter since a couple of years. The time is ripe today for French nationals to accept this fact. The Franco-German friendship today is strong enough to accept the research facts. The times to suppress the unthinkable is over for the two countries. Many years from now it will also be subject of discussion for the British to accept the unthinkable. But this time is not ripe , not yet. 

 

So long as these are the  facts, Egbert, and not an invention of people who are determined to impose a twenty first century wish on to an early twentieth century reality.

 

I have been reviled for suggesting this before on this forum, and hope that my circumspection will not be misconstrued .

 

Phil

[healdav]

21 hours ago, phil andrade said:

This is a topic that we've discussed before on this forum.

 

The notion that  French ossuaries contain 50% German remains is rather hard for me to believe, let alone accept.

 

Are there inscriptions on the buildings that state that these are French remains ?

 

If so, it's astonishing that such a huge contingent of German dead would be interred in these places without proper acknowledgement on the ossuary building.

 

I have visited three ossuaries - Verdun, Souchez and Mont Kemel, and IIRC all the writing that I saw specified that these were the remains of French soldiers.

 

Have the inscriptions been changed ?

 

Phil

 

 

How do you tell a German bone from a French one?

I have always taken it for granted that a goodly proportion at least of the bones in the Ossuary at Verdun are German and I tell visitors this.

[phil andrade]

Plain as a pikestaff on the Ossuary on Mt Kemmel, is the inscription soldats  Francais inconnus 

 

Forgive me if I've misspelt the French...it's been half a century since I studied it for O level.

 

What do the inscriptions on the other ossuaries say ?

 

Might it be that the Mt Kemmel battlefield allowed for the recovery of remains in a less promiscuous manner, thereby affording a better chance of national identity ?

 

Unknown they might be, but French they most definitely are : or was this just wishful thinking ?

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

[phil andrade]

On 05/08/2017 at 18:22, egbert said:

Prof Krumeich, one of the most reputated German WW1 historians, who also co-chaires French Government sponsered historical associations, wrote me in a bilateral discussion about unidentified German soldiers buried as French soldiers, that the French ossuaires could house roughly up to 50% of German dead. Dead that were recovered after the war from the battlefields without any trace of their nationality. 

That would add tens of thousand German Western Front dead now "buried" in the famous French (bone-) ossuaires as French kia

 

Egbert,

 

For a long time I've been trying to conduct research  into the number of Germans who died on the Western Front 1914-18.  I suppose that's because it throws light onto the efficacy of the Allied strategy.  The question of German casualties matters as a criterion.

 

I've placed a lot of reliance on the volksbund figures, and I'v predicated my own guesswork on the authentic figure of 900,000 or so German soldiers being recorded as buried in the cemeteries .  I've assumed that several hundred thousand more have not been recovered .

 

If it transpires that - as you say - there are an additional 70,000 in the Verdun ossuary alone ( with the implication that there are commensurate proportions in other ossuaries ), then I must recalibrate my estimates and reconsider things.

 

That's what I'm driving at here.

 

Phil

[egbert]

French or German?

 

We are again at the point of discussion from the 2014 thread

 

Why don't you contact Prof Dr Krumeich at:  krumeich at phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de 

Edited 8 August , 2017 by egbert

[egbert]

..and this afterburner from the official website of the French Ministry of Defense

 

 

".....S'imposant par la noblesse et la sobriété de ses lignes, l'Ossuaire est l'œuvre de Léon Azéma, Max Edrei et Jacques Hardy. Le corps principal du monument est constitué d'un cloître long de 137 mètres où se succèdent, dans des alvéoles, les 46 tombeaux (un pour chaque secteur principal du champ de bataille, d'Avocourt aux Eparges) abritant les restes mortels de 130 000 soldats allemands ou français...."

[phil andrade]

The ossuaries at Mt Kemmel, and the very much larger one at Notre Dame de Lorette near Arras, give precise numbers for the unidentified bodies interred.

 

 

 

The  ossuary at Verdun has nothing like this precision, numbers ranging from 80,000 to the 155,000 you mentioned, Egbert.

 

Are there other ossuaries that the French constructed for their dead from the Great War ?  I would have thought that the Champagne battlefields would have required at least one.

 

If all of them except for Verdun give precise numbers, then that would imply a great deal about the question of nationality , too.

 

Phil

 

 

[trajan]

Coming back to numbers killed on the western front, has anyone ever done the hard graft of adding up the figures listed in the regular German casualty lists? They show KIA and missing and surely would be pretty accurate up to the last month or so of the war.