Group Photo - Officers, 285th Party, School of Musketry, Hythe

[mrfrank]

I have recently purchased this photograph on Ebay - apologies if I was bidding against any fellow forum members! I can make out the bronze Territorial 'T' collar badges on most of the officers featured. Helpfully the mount is annotated in pencil identifying the Major seated front centre as School instructor Major Lyall Brandreth who was killed at Gallipoli in June 1915 with 2nd Royal Fusiliers. I believe I've identified one other and over the coming days I'll put crops of the other officers featured to hopefully get opinions as to their regiments and perhaps in some cases to try [if at all possible] to obtain identification of some of the individuals. Any assistance would be gratefully appreciated.  

 

Edited 16 October , 2021 by mrfrank
Photo

[mrfrank]

With the aid of the May 1912 Army List, I believe this to be Lt Ernest Alfred Coles of the 15th London Regiment (Civil Service Rifles) from the annotation 'EAC' to the mount.

Edited 4 April , 2017 by mrfrank

[mrfrank]

Could anyone confirm the regiment for this territorial officer......Black Watch? And the medal ribbon he's wearing?

Edited 27 February , 2017 by mrfrank

[David Ridgus]

Black Watch, MC?

 

David

[mrfrank]

David, believe the MC was first awarded in 1914. 

[David Ridgus]

What is the date of the picture? It is cut off on the image you posted

David

 

Edit: Apologies, just realised its in the tag above, 1912, so of course it's not the MC

Edited 28 February , 2017 by David Ridgus

[mrfrank]

Sorry David, didn't intend to cut the date off the posted image....would have been clearer. 

[David Ridgus]

Had a look at a chart showing British medal ribbons pre Great War. The only one I could see that was three bars with the middle one darker than those on the outside was the campaign ribbon for the Sudan. Possible?

 

David

[Stoppage Drill]

We all know about the optically confusing misrepresentation of colours on old b/w photographs. However, the medal ribbon in question here does appear to have two narrow central bands, so I am going to suggest 1911 Coronation medal.

Edited 28 February , 2017 by Stoppage Drill
spelling

[Old Owl]

1 hour ago, Stoppage Drill said:

We all know about the optically confusing misrepresentation of colours on old b/w photographs. However, the medal ribbon in question here does appear to have two narrow central bands, so I am going to suggest 1911 Coronation medal.

 

Definitely either 1911 Coronation or 1911 Delhi Durbar.

[mrfrank]

Thanks for the ribbon suggestions gents. Next image of another couple of territorial officers. One above appears to be again Black Watch and the officer below....The Buffs?

[mrfrank]

I've noticed that the monthly Army Lists carried an annotation of '(H)'  for those officers of the SR, Militia or Territorial Army who had qualified at a School of Musketry. I'm looking at the May 1912 and Jan 1913 lists for those that obtained the annotation during this time frame and covering the class in question. Using Alfred Ernest Coles as an example and looking at the two lists for the 15th CSR, he is the only officer to gain the annotation and was in fact appointed their Instructor of Musketry on the 8th July 1912 shortly after attending this course. Using this method I'm pretty confident I can either identify these officers or narrow down the possibles to a very small number of names.........providing I can identify their respective Regimental/Battalion badges/insignia. Being a bit of a biff in this field, I definitely need help from more knowledgeable forum members.Taking this shot of three of the officers, I'll fairly certain that the Lt to the lower left is sporting a 3rd County of London (Sharpshooters) capbadge (The '3' is clearly visible with the aid of a glass).If so, I'm fairly confident that it's Lt Irving James Albery who was the only officer of that unit to obtain the School of Musketry annotation between May 12 and Jan 13  and subsequently held staff appointments during the war.

However, any suggestions regarding the other two cap badges in this image??

Edited 1 March , 2017 by mrfrank

[mrfrank]

I'm open to being corrected, but i think the officer to the bottom right in the last image is sporting the cap badge of the 7th Bn., Notts & Derbs (Robin Hoods). The individual is sporting one pip/a 2nd Lt and having looked at the Army Lists it would seem it was unusual for a territorial 2nd Lt to have undertaken this course. However, there is such an officer in the Army Lists for this battalion so I suspect this is 2nd Lt Arthur Montagu Williams who was killed at Kemmel in June 1915. 

[mrfrank]

Any ideas on the two cap badges here. The upper possibly the Essex Regiment?  But, the lower one?

 

Edit - thanks to the Artists Rifles ident and the Army Lists I'm confident that the officer here is Capt Charles Francis Hill Greenwood later Lt Col DSO and CO of 22nd Bn London Regt in 1918. 

 

Edit - Almost certain that the individual featured here above is Lt Charles Luker Awbery of 4th Essex who was KIA on 31Jul17 and commemorated on the Menin Gate Memorial. On-line IWM Photo provides likeness. 

 

Edited 4 April , 2017 by mrfrank

[Andrew Upton]

7 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Any ideas on the two cap badges here. The upper possibly the Essex Regiment?  But, the lower one?

 

 

Artists Rifles:

 

 

 

 

[mrfrank]

Thanks Andrew! I'd discounted that from the cap badge, but it's clearer from the collar badges......think I need to go to specsavers. 

[mrfrank]

 

 

Any any ideas regarding the two here - I'm thinking the lower one is Worcestershire Regt?

 

[mrfrank]

Just come back to this photo after a while and identified the Essex Regiment officer in post 14. Could anyone help me out by providing a possible regiment/unit for the Scottish officer in featured in post 17 as well as the upper one here? Any help/suggestions appreciated. 

Edited 4 April , 2017 by mrfrank

[David Ridgus]

Hampshire Regiment for the chap in post 18?

 

David

[mrfrank]

Following this post I put on the forum last month, 

 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/293653-advice-sought-on-pre-war-guardsterritorial-group-photo/#comment-3056767

I went back to look again at this Hythe image and I think - after trawling the Army Lists - that I’ve managed to identify the majority of those featured. However, it’s thrown up a question and there’s a couple of individuals that I’m yet to put a name to. 

According to the Army Lists, one them could possibly be Captain Edward Arthur Cavendish Hartley of 5th (Flintshire) Battalion, Royal Welsh Fusiliers. To all intents and purposes looking at the Army Lists he’s a RWF man. However, I found a newspaper report on-line stating that he’d been attached to the Rhyl Company from the North Midland (Staffordshire) Royal Garrison Artillery in 1910 as they’d been without an officer ‘for some time’. 

In his case, the AL does not have any RGA affiliation annotated under his name (unlike regular army officers similarly attached to reserve units who would).  My question is can anyone confirm that he would have continued to wear the RGA badge during his service with 5RWF?

Mike

…..and a very belated thank you to David for the last reply I had missed!

 

 

Edited 16 November , 2021 by mrfrank

[mrfrank]

For any future interest/searches, those I think identified/possibly identified thus far:

Back row L-R:

Capt John Balderston Muir - 4th Black Watch

Capt Norman Crawford Walker - 4th Black Watch (KiA 25Sep15)

Possibly Lt James Alexander Lindsay Turner - 6th Royal Scots

Lt Ernest Alfred Coles - 15th Civil Service Rifles 

Lt Charles Luker Awbery- 4th Essex Regiment (KiA 31Jul17)

Lt Reginald James Bacon - 7th Hampshire Regiment

Middle Row:

In civilian attire possibly Capt Harold Fownes Somerville - Rifle Brigade (instructor at the school and good likeness from other images)

Lt Reginald Ingram Marians - 2nd Bn London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) 

Lt Charles Wellard Marsh-Smith - 4th Buffs

Lt JE Grosvenor - 7th Worcestershire Regiment 

Capt Edgar J Davis - 19th London Regiment (St Pancras)

Capt Charles Francis Hill Greenwood - Artists Rifles

Lt Irving James Albery - 3rd County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters)

2nd Lt Arthur Montagu Williams - 7th Notts & Derby (KiA 15Jun15)

 

………Front row and some further images to follow as that’s where I’m having some problems! 

Edited 16 November , 2021 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

On 08/03/2017 at 16:49, mrfrank said:

 

 

Any any ideas regarding the two here - I'm thinking the lower one is Worcestershire Regt?

 

The uppermost fellow is Royal Scots and I concur that the lower is most likely Worcestershire Regiment.

[FROGSMILE]

On 16/11/2021 at 21:34, mrfrank said:

Following this post I put on the forum last month, 

 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/293653-advice-sought-on-pre-war-guardsterritorial-group-photo/#comment-3056767

I went back to look again at this Hythe image and I think - after trawling the Army Lists - that I’ve managed to identify the majority of those featured. However, it’s thrown up a question and there’s a couple of individuals that I’m yet to put a name to. 

According to the Army Lists, one them could possibly be Captain Edward Arthur Cavendish Hartley of 5th (Flintshire) Battalion, Royal Welsh Fusiliers. To all intents and purposes looking at the Army Lists he’s a RWF man. However, I found a newspaper report on-line stating that he’d been attached to the Rhyl Company from the North Midland (Staffordshire) Royal Garrison Artillery in 1910 as they’d been without an officer ‘for some time’. 

In his case, the AL does not have any RGA affiliation annotated under his name (unlike regular army officers similarly attached to reserve units who would).  My question is can anyone confirm that he would have continued to wear the RGA badge during his service with 5RWF?

Mike

…..and a very belated thank you to David for the last reply I had missed!

 

 

It would be usual Army protocol (regardless of regular or auxiliary status) for an officer to continue to wear the cap badge of the unit in which he was commissioned if it was a temporary attachment.  If the arrangement was to be made permanent then a formal transfer would take place and insignia change.  The only officer I can see who might conceivably be RWF is seated far right in the front row and even then he’s wearing a non-standard, TF battalion cap badge with South Africa honour.  The artillery captain sat adjacent to him (perhaps of prior acquaintance regimentally via the attachment you mentioned) seems noticeably older and that might assist with his identification.

Interestingly the fulsomely moustachioed officer wearing Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) insignia in the middle of the front row has campaign medals on his left breast and what is most like a life saving medal on his right breast.

Edited 18 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

Thanks Frogsmile for your very helpful responses. 
 

Here’s what I have for the front row L-R:

Capt Albert Edward Bowen - 22nd Bn London Regiment (Queen’s)

Unidentified Captain - Manchester Regiment

Probably Capt H Davies - 2nd Bn London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)

Maj Lyall Brandreth - 2nd Royal Fusiliers & School of Musketry Instructor (KiA Gallipoli 06Jun15)

Unidentified Artillery Captain

Probably Capt Edward Arthur Cavendish Hartley - Attd 5th (Flintshire) Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers

 

 

Any suggestions for the currently Unidentified Captain 2nd from left? 

Edited 19 November , 2021 by mrfrank

[mrfrank]

…..and without the scratch across the cap badge: