Group Photo - Officers, 285th Party, School of Musketry, Hythe

[FROGSMILE]

17 hours ago, mrfrank said:

…..and without the scratch across the cap badge:

He is 2nd Battalion Manchester Regiment, where as with many regiments it was the practice for commissioned officers of the 2nd Battalion to wear a different cap badge to their other ranks.  It was known as the Brunswick Star.

Edited 19 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Thanks Frogsmile for your very helpful responses. 
 

Here’s what I have for the front row L-R:

Capt Albert Edward Bowen - 22nd Bn London Regiment (Queen’s)

Unidentified Captain

Probably Capt H Davies - 2nd Bn London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)

Maj Lyall Brandreth - 2nd Royal Fusiliers & School of Musketry Instructor (KiA Gallipoli 06Jun15)

Unidentified Artillery Captain

Probably Capt Edward Arthur Cavendish Hartley - Attd 5th (Flintshire) Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers

 

 

Any suggestions for the currently Unidentified Captain 2nd from left? 

Are you positive that the officer wearing the RA cap badge isn’t  Captain Edward Arthur Cavendish Hartley?  If he had not formally transferred and was merely attached for duty then I would expect him to continue to wear the insignia of his parent regiment regardless of his attachment to 5th Battalion RWF (TF).  This might be corroborated one way or another by ascertaining which TF battalion of the RWF wore the discrete pattern of badge with the South Africa honour attached to the base of the grenade.

[mrfrank]

Thanks for the Manchester Regiment identification Frogsmile - every day is a school day on here! 
 

Strange that he’s 2nd battalion and not a Territorial like the other party members. No Manchester Regiment officers on the staff of the Musketry School at this time either. Can’t identify him from the relevant Army Lists so a mystery for now. 
 

As regards the question about Edward Arthur Cavendish Hartley, I can’t be positive about him at all. All I can say is that he’s probably one of the two men to far right of the front row. EAC Hartley is the only RWF territorial officer to pick up the Musketry annotation in the AL during this period and he was apparently seconded from the RGA and as such you’d expect him to be retaining the artillery cap badge and therefore the man to the left. Unfotunately - if that indeed is the case - there isn’t a second RWF candidate from the Army Lists to identify the RWF officer to the right. 

Edited 19 November , 2021 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Thanks for the Manchester Regiment identification Frogsmile - every day is a school day on here! 
 

Strange that he’s 2nd battalion and not a Territorial like the other party members. No Manchester Regiment officers on the staff of the Musketry School at this time either. Can’t identify him from the relevant Army Lists so a mystery for now. 
 

As regards the question about Edward Arthur Cavendish Hartley, I can’t be positive about him at all. All I can say is that he’s probably one of the two men to far right of the front row. EAC Hartley is the only RWF territorial officer to pick up the Musketry annotation in the AL during this period and he was apparently seconded from the RGA and as such you’d expect him to be retaining the artillery cap badge and therefore the man to the left. Unfotunately - if that indeed is the case - there isn’t a second RWF candidate from the Army Lists to identify the RWF officer to the right. 

I think the 2nd Manchester’s fellow is probably a regular attached to a TF battalion as regular permanent staff.  The gunner badged officer I would expect to be Captain Hartley (att 5 RWF).  The answer might lie with checking which RWF TF battalion had the SA honour, as they wore the badge with unusual (for RWF) flames.  The more usual regiment for that style of flames on their officers bronze badge is the Northumberland Fusiliers.  Thus it’s ostensibly possible that the RA chap is Hartley and the chap next time him an as yet unidentified Northumberland Fusiliers officer.

Edited 19 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

Thanks to Charlie’s tip and the wonders of the internet, found the 285th Party nominal roll on The Ogilby Muster that has resolved a couple of things.

The Manchester Regiment Captain in the front row is William Henry Archbutt, 9th Manchester Regiment who died in Egypt in Feb 1915 aged 54.

The gunner badged Captain in the front row is probably James Napier Hotchkis serving at the time with the Highland Cyclist Battalion, but whose MIC confirms he was an RFA Captain. 

One other name was on the roll that hadn’t previously come up. Lt Peter Isles Whitton, 7th Scottish Rifles who was killed at Gallipoli in June 1915 aged 37. He could possibly be the individual in civilian clothes, but no idea as to why he’d not be in uniform like the rest. Cannot find an image of him to confirm either way.  
 

All other identifications were confirmed by the nominal roll. 

Edited 26 April , 2022 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/04/2022 at 23:37, mrfrank said:

Thanks to Charlie’s tip and the wonders of the internet, found the 285th Party nominal roll on The Ogilby Muster that has resolved a couple of things.

The Manchester Regiment Captain in the front row is William Henry Archbutt, 9th Manchester Regiment who died in Egypt in Feb 1915 aged 54.

The gunner badged Captain in the front row is probably James Napier Hotchkis serving at the time with the Highland Cyclist Battalion, but whose MIC confirms he was an RFA Captain. 

One other name was on the roll that hadn’t previously come up. Lt Peter Isles Whitton, 7th Scottish Rifles who was killed at Gallipoli in June 1915 aged 37. He could possibly be the individual in civilian clothes, but no idea as to why he’d not be in uniform like the rest. Cannot find an image of him to confirm either way.  
 

All other identifications were confirmed by the nominal roll. 

That’s great to almost bring complete closure to this Mike.  Perhaps one of the forum genealogical wizards might be able to find a photo of Peter Whitton in the deeper reaches of the interweb. 

Edited 28 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

On 26/04/2022 at 23:37, mrfrank said:

One other name was on the roll that hadn’t previously come up. Lt Peter Isles Whitton, 7th Scottish Rifles who was killed at Gallipoli in June 1915 aged 37. He could possibly be the individual in civilian clothes, but no idea as to why he’d not be in uniform like the rest. Cannot find an image of him to confirm either way.  

Mike, did you ever solve this one about 'Lt Peter Isles Whitton, 7th Scottish Rifles'?

Searching for Officers pictures on your latest School of Musketry post I came across this post and as luck would have it I had Hart's List open.

So after a quick look I came across this topic on the forum.

2nd row standing on the far right is 'Captain Peter White Whitton'.

There is not a 'Captain Peter White Whitton' anywhere in Hart's Lists for 1915, there is however a 'Captain  Whitton P I'.

screenshot courtesy of https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100896395

It is a small picture but it may be your man?

Possibly someone labeling the photograph had it in mind he was called 'Peter Isle Whitton' but their mind went down the 'Isle' of 'White' route and typed 'White' instead of 'Isle'?

Regards, Bob.

 

[mrfrank]

12 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Mike, did you ever solve this one about 'Lt Peter Isles Whitton, 7th Scottish Rifles'?

Searching for Officers pictures on your latest School of Musketry post I came across this post and as luck would have it I had Hart's List open.

So after a quick look I came across this topic on the forum.

2nd row standing on the far right is 'Captain Peter White Whitton'.

There is not a 'Captain Peter White Whitton' anywhere in Hart's Lists for 1915, there is however a 'Captain  Whitton P I'.

screenshot courtesy of https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100896395

It is a small picture but it may be your man?

Possibly someone labeling the photograph had it in mind he was called 'Peter Isle Whitton' but their mind went down the 'Isle' of 'White' route and typed 'White' instead of 'Isle'?

Regards, Bob.

 

 

Just checked back and I’d finished with PI Whitton still as a possible for the single non-uniformed individual. Although grainy, I think there’s enough there for confirmation that it is indeed Peter Isles Whitton in the Musketry photo.

Very good find Bob and much appreciated! 
Mike

 

 

 

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

 

Just checked back and I’d finished with PI Whitton still as a possible for the single non-uniformed individual. Although grainy, I think there’s enough there for confirmation that it is indeed Peter Isles Whitton in the Musketry photo.

Very good find Bob and much appreciated! 
Mike

 

 

 

Checking the Hart's List 1914, again there are only 9 listings for the name 'Whitton', so quite easy to find him.

There is not an Officer named 'Peter White Whitton'.

Only 'P I Whitton'. Screen shot below courtesy of https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100747363

I will bet it is your man Mike,  happy to help.

Regards, Bob.

Regards, Bob.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, mrfrank said:

 

Just checked back and I’d finished with PI Whitton still as a possible for the single non-uniformed individual. Although grainy, I think there’s enough there for confirmation that it is indeed Peter Isles Whitton in the Musketry photo.

Very good find Bob and much appreciated! 
Mike

 

 

 

I agree with Bob that the photos match, so this seems an excellent result!

[Bob Davies]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree with Bob that the photos match, so this seems an excellent result!

Thank you FROGSMILE,

I am happy that you agree with this result. Further searches have not revealed any more photographs of Peter Isles Whitton.

We do have him on a 'Roll of Honour' from Glasgow High School, here; https://archive.org/details/rollofhonour19141914glas/page/4/mode/2up?q=whitton

I should include this post from a while ago, it keeps things in order and connected and there might be some result from it?

Everything is connected here, well almost!

Regards, Bob.