Advice sought on pre-war Guards/Territorial group photo

[mrfrank]

A request for help with regard to this photo that appears to be pre-war.
All the officers (2nd Lts, Lts & Captains) featured are from various territorial units. However, the front central figure is a Scots Guards Captain and the four individuals standing at the very back are from various Guards regiments. Taken by London based photographer. 
Anyone able to confirm if this is likely to be a class/course of instruction and if so, any ideas as to the type?  Any suggestions to year also gratefully accepted. I’m guessing around 1910-12, but I’m sure someone here may have a more informed opinion. 
Thanks in advance,

Mike

 

[FROGSMILE]

A very interesting photo.  They are all London Regiment of the Territorial Force attending a training course run by the Foot Guards.  The SNCO instructors are stood in a row at the far rear and, as they are mainly dressed in white ‘drill order’ jackets and the majority of the officers are wearing their swords, it suggests that the course subject was Drill and Ceremonial and that it was perhaps for those selected to become battalion adjutants.  I concur that the date is around 1910.  The majority of the Territorial officers have the small T beneath their collar badges as per regulation. With a magnifier the units could all be identified, but the most obvious are the 1st to 4th London’s (Royal Fusiliers), the 22nd and 24th London’s (Queen’s), 23rd London’s, 21st London’s, 15th London’s (Civil Service Rifles) and several more with a Rifles identity (wearing black buttons).  A few are wearing the blue/rifle green ‘patrols’ order of dress (an optional uniform for auxiliaries because of the expense) instead of drab khaki service dress worn by the others (the minimum requirement).  The officer in charge of the course is the Scots Guards captain seated centrally, who is probably an adjutant.  Three of the Territorial officers in the front row and one in the rear row are bearing campaign medal ribbons, suggesting that they perhaps saw service in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, or that they are former regulars.

NB.  It’s interesting that this shows the informal relationship that following its formation in 1908 gradually developed between the London Regiment and the Brigade of Foot Guards, which was at long last formalised in 2017, when its modern iteration was granted a secondary title as “Guards Reserve Battalion”.  For that reason I imagine that the London Regiment of today might be pleased to have a copy of the photo.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

it suggests that the course subject was Drill and Ceremonial and that it was perhaps for those selected to become battalion adjutants.

Would Battalion Adjutants in the Territorial Force not be Regular Army Officers on secondment and forming part of the full time cadre of each Battalion? A difficult role to carry out part-time and an ideal position in the battalion structure to bring about conformity with Regular Army practice. Simply asking to get clarity in my own mind, as that seems to be the situation with my local county Regiment, the Norfolks, but fully accept that may be the exception rather than the rule.

If they were Regular Army then possibly no need for Drill Instruction, but could be a conversion course for men who had not performed the role of adjutant so far in their military careers.

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

44 minutes ago, PRC said:

Would Battalion Adjutants in the Territorial Force not be Regular Army Officers on secondment and forming part of the full time cadre of each Battalion? A difficult role to carry out part-time and an ideal position in the battalion structure to bring about conformity with Regular Army practice. Simply asking to get clarity in my own mind, as that seems to be the situation with my local county Regiment, the Norfolks, but fully accept that may be the exception rather than the rule.

If they were Regular Army then possibly no need for Drill Instruction, but could be a conversion course for men who had not performed the role of adjutant so far in their military careers.

Cheers,

Peter

You make an excellent point Peter and are quite right that the established post in TF battalions for adjutant was for a regular officer on a posting for a period of duty.  The duties were many and at that time (and more recently too) it was usual for him to be assisted by an assistant adjutant (a TF officer).  The need for Drill and Ceremonial competence largely fell with those two officers, although the company commanders needed to have an working understanding too.  In this case I think the course is probably for assistant adjutants, or it might be a mixed class including company commanders.  I cannot be positive given the mixture of ranks ranging from subaltern to captain.  With the range of units represented it is clearly what in modern times has become referred to as ‘train the trainer’ instruction, intended for those qualified to go back to their units and ‘spread the word’ and promote a common and efficient standard.  One of the aims for having an assistant adjutant found by a TF officer was to spread the understanding of his duties so that in the event of conflict and the likely departure of regular officers to rejoin their regiment the requisite experience would not depart with him. This was important given that the TF were intended at the time for home defence, whereas regulars would deploy as necessary overseas.  If no one of the requisite seniority was available (not uncommon) more junior officers would be sent rather than a unit lose a vacancy on the course.

NB.  An interesting aspect is that Guards SNCOs were not competent to teach light infantry/Rifles drill, which suggests that standard heavy infantry foot drill and Ceremonial was taught with any units practising light infantry style drill learning within their units.  Anecdotal evidence suggests that not all units used light infantry drill despite their rifle volunteer origins.  It’s not a well known fact that at that time there was no overall common standard of light infantry drill and each regiment that practised it had their own variations, which famously caused problems for large scale ceremonial involving multiple units.

 

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Some of the guards on the officers’ swords look like infantry pattern while others look like artillery pattern. Did some London battalions have their own pattern?

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Some of the guards on the officers’ swords look like infantry pattern while others look like artillery pattern. Did some London battalions have their own pattern?

Some used Rifles pattern Phil, which I think are probably those you have mistaken as artillery.

[PhilB]

That explains it! Thanks for your contributions, Frogsmile, as informative as ever.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, PhilB said:

That explains it! Thanks for your contributions, Frogsmile, as informative as ever.

I’m glad to help Phil, a photo like that which head’s this thread often tells a story when examined in depth.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Bear with me as the cogs can whirr a bit slowly at times, apologies for going over old ground  and accept this is just speculation at this stage

So to use the more modern parlance,  these assistant adjutants, (part time TF officers), were ‘shadowing’ their full time Regular Army equivalent for ‘on the job’ training, with a view to ‘back-filling’ should the Regular Army Officer be recalled in the event of any war or a national emergency \ imperial war required the Territorial Force to be embodied.

What hadn’t been envisaged was the kind of war that Britain joined in August 1914 and in which it soon became clear that the Territorial Force would be required for more than just manning Imperial Garrisons and defending the Home Islands so that Regulars could be freed up for the “real” fighting.

So from September 1914 both existing and new members of the Territoral Force were offered the opportunity to sign an enhanced imperial service obligation – basically a foreign service obligation. Those who signed it moved to a first line of their battalion, those who didn’t stayed with a renamed second line.

But this is where the cogs whirred – two battalions meant two adjutants. Where did they come from?

To try and answer that I took a look at Harts Annual Army List for 1912 – so after the estimated date of this photo, so any probationary assistant adjutant would be in place and the Regular Army man serving as Adjutant would be known – and compared it to the December 1914 Monthly Army List – so after things have had a chance to settle down and the List has caught up.

I targeted one of the battalions identified by @FROGSMILE to see if there was any mileage in this line of thinking.

15^th London (Prince of Wales’s Own Civil Service Rifles)

1912 Harts List.

Adjutant. Lieutenant (Temporary Captain) A.A.C. FitzClarence, Royal Fusiliers, from 22^nd November 1909. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100704598

December 1914 Army List.

Adjutants.

Lieutenant (Temporary Captain) F.W. Parish, K.R.R.C., from 22^nd November 1913.
Captain. E.A. Coles from the 19^th September 1914. (There is a Second Lieutenant Ernest A. Coles on the 1912 Harts List serving with the 15^th Battalion).
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104756761

Apparently he is included in a group shot on this thread on GWF, but unless I’m missing something, a certain poster called @mrfrank hasn’t said which one he is https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/151411-ernest-alfred-coles/

Maybe worthwhile making a comparison with the group shot that opened this thread if @FROGSMILE can confirm the location on the picture of the man he believes came from the Civil Services Rifles.

A positive match would tell us (me!) if this line of investigation is worth pursuing further.

And if Second Lieutenant Coles does appear in the group then gives us the earliest possible date it could have been taken. The other thread mentions that a Sergeant E. A. Coles was commissioned Second Lieutenant 1^st January 1910, (from the London Gazette 31^st December 1909).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 14 October , 2021 by PRC
Formatting and font size

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, PRC said:

Bear with me as the cogs can whirr a bit slowly at times, apologies for going over old ground  and accept this is just speculation at this stage

 

 

 

So to use the more modern parlance,  these assistant adjutants, (part time TF officers), were ‘shadowing’ their full time Regular Army equivalent for ‘on the job’ training, with a view to ‘back-filling’ should the Regular Army Officer be recalled in the event of any war or a national emergency \ imperial war required the Territorial Force to be embodied.

 

 

 

What hadn’t been envisaged was the kind of war that Britain joined in August 1914 and in which it soon became clear that the Territorial Force would be required for more than just manning Imperial Garrisons and defending the Home Islands so that Regulars could be freed up for the “real” fighting.

 

 

 

So from September 1914 both existing and new members of the Territoral Force were offered the opportunity to sign an enhanced imperial service obligation – basically a foreign service obligation. Those who signed it moved to a first line of their battalion, those who didn’t stayed with a renamed second line.

 

But this is where the cogs whirred – two battalions meant two adjutants. Where did they come from?

 

 

 

To try and answer that I took a look at Harts Annual Army List for 1912 – so after the estimated date of this photo, so any probationary assistant adjutant would be in place and the Regular Army man serving as Adjutant would be known – and compared it to the December 1914 Monthly Army List – so after things have had a chance to settle down and the List has caught up.

I targeted one of the battalions identified by @FROGSMILE to see if there was any mileage in this line of thinking.

 

 

 

15^th London (Prince of Wales’s Own Civil Service Rifles)

 

1912 Harts List.

 

Adjutant. Lieutenant (Temporary Captain) A.A.C. FitzClarence, Royal Fusiliers, from 22^nd November 1909. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100704598

December 1914 Army List.

 

Adjutants.

 

Lieutenant (Temporary Captain) F.W. Parish, K.R.R.C., from 22^nd November 1913.
Captain. E.A. Coles from the 19^th September 1914. (There is a Second Lieutenant Ernest A. Coles on the 1912 Harts List serving with the 15^th Battalion).
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104756761

 

 

Apparently he is included in a group shot on this thread on GWF, but unless I’m missing something, a certain poster called @mrfrank hasn’t said which one he is https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/151411-ernest-alfred-coles/

 

 

Maybe worthwhile making a comparison with the group shot that opened this thread if @FROGSMILE can confirm the location on the picture of the man he believes came from the Civil Services Rifles.

 

 

 

A positive match would tell us (me!) if this line of investigation is worth pursuing further.

 

 

 

And if Second Lieutenant Coles does appear in the group then gives us the earliest possible date it could have been taken. The other thread mentions that a Sergeant E. A. Coles was commissioned Second Lieutenant 1^st January 1910, (from the London Gazette 31^st December 1909).

 

 

 

Cheers,
Peter

Fortunately the Civil Service Rifles chap is well defined (some are more blurred with less clear insignia, especially towards the rear).  He is front row far left and wearing the rank of a captain.  He is not the same man (Coles) as is seen in the other thread that you linked.

One important point is that although there definitely were assistant adjutants (whenever possible) I don’t think that they appeared on establishment tables at that time.  They were instead junior officers co-opted from companies by commanding officers, just as in regular battalions where the same policy was practiced.  This wasn’t at all uncommon and followed the same principle as that used to find, e.g. battalion transport officers.  The backfilling followed all the way down the chain and was also used among NCOs (e.g. the officers’ mess sergeant was a company sergeant back filled by a paid lance sergeant).

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

38 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He is not the same man (Coles) as is seen in the other thread that you linked.

So seems like a non-starter. I did take a look at the establishments of the 21st to 24th Battalions in December 1914, to see if it was a case that the 1912 Regular Army Adjutant was still there, and if in effect his TF assistant had moved on to become the Adjutant of the 2nd Line Battalion.

In the case of all four Battalions none of the Regular Army Adjutants were the same man.
Only two, (22nd and 23rd) had a second adjutant, although both were TF men.
The 22nd had a Captain A.D.E. Craig, effective 28th August 1914, who was not with them on Harts 1912 List.
The 23rd had a Captain F.J. Johnson, effective 28th August 1914. There is a Lieutenant F.J. Johnson with the 23rd Battalion on Harts 1912 List.

Just putting it here so no-one else makes the same mistake

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, PRC said:

So seems like a non-starter. I did take a look at the establishments of the 21st to 24th Battalions in December 1914, to see if it was a case that the 1912 Regular Army Adjutant was still there, and if in effect his TF assistant had moved on to become the Adjutant of the 2nd Line Battalion.

In the case of all four Battalions none of the Regular Army Adjutants were the same man.
Only two, (22nd and 23rd) had a second adjutant, although both were TF men.
The 22nd had a Captain A.D.E. Craig, effective 28th August 1914, who was not with them on Harts 1912 List.
The 23rd had a Captain F.J. Johnson, effective 28th August 1914. There is a Lieutenant F.J. Johnson with the 23rd Battalion on Harts 1912 List.

Just putting it here so no-one else makes the same mistake

Cheers,
Peter

I doubt it would have been possible for every battalion to find the necessary appointees all of the time.  There was so much churn and fluctuation as you know.  It’s also worth bearing in mind that the extra duties that drove the need for an assistant adjutant were largely those generated by peacetime routine.  Once on operations those extra requirements fell away and the established adjutants role became far more operationally focused, with a lot less bull apart from the bane of his life, ‘reports and returns’ demanded by and submitted to higher formation, that gradually increased throughout the war.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

 

Spoiler

 

Thanks all for the very informative replies and sorry for any delay in responding. I’m just looking at the May 1910 Army List and I’ve noticed on page 14a under ‘Commands of the Army, London District’ that there are two Scots Guards officers listed as serving with the ‘School of Instruction for officers of the Territorial Force’ based at Chelsea barracks. Namely, Commandant Capt ABE Cator and the Adjutant Lt CFP Hamilton. 
Can anyone advise whether our central figure in the photo is Capt Cator? I’ve found one image on the internet that seems to provide a reasonable likeness. 
The CS Rifles Capt seated far left also features in a 1910 officers group photo contained on page 16/17 Jill Knight’s book ‘CSR in The Great War’. Unfortunately, the caption only identifies those officers that went out to France in March 1915 with 1/15th Bn and not our man here…… 

 

Edited 14 October , 2021 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

I can’t comment on Captain Cator, Scots Guards, other than to say the captain in your original photo might well be at the Chelsea barracks school, but I definitely concur that the CSR captain who appears in both of your two photos are one and the same man.  In the more recently posted photo he is seated front and centre and adjacent to who appears to be the commanding officer, so a typical placing for an adjutant.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

Peter mentioned just about the only other photo I have featuring mainly Territorial Army officers and subject of this older thread:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/247928-group-photo-officers-285th-party-school-of-musketry-hythe/?tab=comments#comment-2499220

I’ve just had another look at it and can confirm that EA Coles is standing in the back row of that image 4th from left. However, the uncanny thing is, I think one individual is present in both images…….  
London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) who is on the front row seated 3rd from left in the Hythe/Musketry 1912 image with Capt rank clearly visible. In the photo the subject of this thread he’s middle row 2nd from left.

Four years ago when I was looking into identifying the individuals in the Hythe image, I think I had a possible identification for this individual of Capt H Davies, 2nd London Regiment due to him having the (H) annotation for School of Musketry qualification added to his Army List entry of Aug 1912 (EA Coles is the only student in the Hythe photo identified with his initials in pencil to the mount and he similarly gains this annotation in the Aug12 AL so seemed a reasonable method for identification). 

 

 

[PRC]

51 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Can anyone advise whether our central figure in the photo is Capt Cator?

Afraid I can't be definate - looks like other members of the Cator family, but I've never seen a picture of Albemarle Bertie Edward Cator, only a memorial in the church at Woodbastwick, near Norwich. Even the County picture archive doesn't have a picture of him, although I believe he may have been Lord-Lieutenant at one time. It's difficult to be sure as Albermarle is a family name.

The family are big land-owners in Norfolk and via the Bowes-Lyons are related to the Royal family. They and several other wealthy Norfolk families of the period, had long connections with the Guards.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 14 October , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[mrfrank]

Thanks Peter. Seems Lt CFP Hamilton was promoted Captain in 1911. If he was promoted whilst in post at The School of Instruction I suppose it could be him in this photo depending on when it was taken. 

[travers61]

There is a good online history of the Cator family, which shows Major-General Abermarle Bertie Edward CATOR (died 1932) as:

From 1908 to 1911 he instructed as many as one thousand five hundred officers and N.C.O.s of the Territorials at the London District School of Instruction, Chelsea, with tact and courtesy that endeared him to all.

http://www.beckenhamplaceparkfriends.org.uk/catorsbyPManning.pdf (biography of ABEC page 74, photo on page 76)

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, travers61 said:

There is a good online history of the Cator family, which shows Major-General Abermarle Bertie Edward CATOR (died 1932) as:

From 1908 to 1911 he instructed as many as one thousand five hundred officers and N.C.O.s of the Territorials at the London District School of Instruction, Chelsea, with tact and courtesy that endeared him to all.

http://www.beckenhamplaceparkfriends.org.uk/catorsbyPManning.pdf (biography of ABEC page 74, photo on page 76)

 

Brilliant!  I think that confirms that he is very likely to be the Scots Guards captain acting as course officer (often titled ‘chief instructor’) in the photo that heads this thread.

Edited 15 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE