ARMY COUNCIL ORDERS- TRANSFERS OF DRAFTS

[MBrockway]

    advertising for “men used to pick and shovel,as well as artisans of all descriptions”

 

 

That sounds like the same advert that this snippet comes from:

 

I think that was the line above.

 

great info - many thanks!

[MBrockway]

   Mark- re Fussell. Fussell was a minor league Eng. Lit. academic- some small amount of early product on some obscure areas (18th Lit?)

 

His BA was from Pomona, which was a good school in my day (matric 1980).  A Harvard MA and Doctorate seems pretty major league to me, and in my experience nearly everybody's doctoral thesis could be described as "some small amount of early product on some obscure areas" 

[Guest]

  Mark- I do not seek to belittle Fussell-far from it -You and I would agree,I think, that GWMM is a great piece of writing-and it certainly makes me think about things every time I dip into it.  I write from the perspective of bookseller for many years and I perhaps see Lit.Crit. from a different perspective-  The American  academic Lit.Crit. industry was centered on the the development of an academic production line leading to a  published doctoral thesis on some suitably worthy topic-but it fitted the demands of a doctorate- how long it took to do, how much "original" work could reasonably be carried out in that time and the length of the examined thesis- So at doctoral level, no great works on,say,Samuel Johnson's World View,etc-but, frankly, dull but worthy monographs. Yes, many go on to be magnificent experts in a larger field-Fred Pottle for example-or Wilmarth Lewis on Horace Walpole-but the dull,narrow monograph of acdemic hurlde comes first-Thus, with Fussell- 2 early works that are suitably dull- a study of Patrick Brydone (Who he?) and a critical edition of a work by Samuel Say-then veering into a slightly larger academic pool of Augustan poetry.  Hardly earthshaking- until GWMM comes,effectively out of nowhere-it certainly couldnt be forecast on his extant academic output to that date- And I submit,M'Lud, that GWMM came out of a fortuitous (for us) amalgam of personal experience both as an academic Lit Crit man and as an infantry officer. And I say a thank you to his memory for it.

       I have already remarked on how through my lifetime, I look out for the ways in which memory and memorialisation have changed- That dedication in GWMM certainly tempers the way I read the book. A small theme I find of interest is how those who were involved in WW2- mainly because they were around for a long time during my life thus far- and achieved prominence in all sorts of fields were still tempered by their experiences of the war- particularly historians. Great history writing but often their own involvement in wartime events came back to them and meant much- eg E.P.Thompson was always fascinated by how the British army he encountered in Italy during WW2 actually worked-how military demands and civilians in uniform actually produced some sort of functioning  army. Or  Lawrence Stone- a junior officer RN and some of his later junior colleagues whom I had the privilege to meet often said he retained something of the demeanour of the navy officer . Or again, Ronald Robinson- of "Africa and the Victorians"-always kept in touch with his old bomber crew. Or take Enoch Powell- who regarded his career as a failure but chose to be buried with his old regimental tie (R.Warwicks). For the Great War, one of my favourite memoirs is "Another World"  by Anthony Eden(I was lucky enough to get him to sign my copy)- It was probably the only time he mixed with "ordinary" mortals but he remained loyal to them to the end of his life- his little anecdote about being given a small steel penknife by one of his old men is emboldened by the statement that it was in front of him as he wrote the book. 

    On our related thread about KRRC and birthplace analysis,charts,etc, one of the points I would make about it is that the concept of "nationalism"   v "regionalism"in Britain and,in particular, the British army is not so stressed a theme in the historiography of this country as it is in that of others- Germany in particular. An excellent book that I think has some parallels for the British Isles is Eugen Weber "Peasants into Frenchmen" -about how the French state was quite authoritarian in creating the institutions,the symbols and the myths that make modern France, instead of a collection of not-quite-French regions. And Eugen Weber's outlook was,I think, influenced by his experiences -as a Rumanian French teenager at public school in England-with being commissioned in a KOSB battalion-whichcomposed largely of lowly,fiery, not well eucated working class Scots- remained a fascination with him.

    In summary, the point I am trying to make is that historians may generate lots of good history but they are often tempered by other events in which they have had walk-on parts-Thats what makes Fussell such a good writer

 

[MBrockway]

Sorry Mike - you wrong-footed me there with your initial description of Fussell as a minor league Eng. Lit. academic!  Naturally one's opening gambit tends to set the tone for how a reader will interpret one's position.  I must say I do find your posts require very close reading to tease out what you're really trying to say, and I'm very pleased to find in fact we do both agree on the importance and impact of "The Great War and Modern Memory".

 

My Prat. Crit. paper in Schools was to compare Dulce et decorum est with Newbolt's He Fell Among Thieves.  Having read and enjoyed Fussell certainly deepened the quality of my answer.

[Guest]

   Apologies if I touched a raw nerve- As a bookseller, I had 3 rules about stocking academic Lit.Crit. (and God knows the US university presses churned out enough of it)

1) Never stock anything on an author you have never heard of.

2) Never stock anything which compares 2 or more writers where the link is not blindingly obvious (such as the Romantics)- eg, hypothetically , something along the lines of "Rudyard Kipling's Unconscious Debt to Daniel Defoe" Invariably a published doctorate

3) Look out for books which have hidden depths of obscurity,especially by title words- eg "Subconscious/ Unconscious or "Influence of...."

    (Though interestingly, it was the other way round for Ancient Classical writers or even Medieval-the obscurer the better!!  Give me a copy of John Sparrow's "Repetition and Half-Lines in Vergil" anytime!!

     On a parallel with Fussell, I rate Kurt Vonnegut "Slaughterhouse Five"- and,like Fussell,clearly affected by infantry service in Europe- I like the book because it ,to me,is in the same tradition as the writers of the Great War-it may be fiction but there is a lot of good stuff about attitudes and outlooks in wartime buried away in it (And the film version is great-if only they would show it on TV occasionally)

     Right-get back to the Thread as I still have one or 2 queries about transfers....

[conijoni]

Apologies- it was Church Lads Brigade I meant- a colleague and friend, Adrian Lee, has done the next borough, Woodford (and done it well) and picked up a few early recruits to KRRC- I think from one particular church-Holy Trinity, Hermon Hill.

 

A Church Lads' Brigade company was enrolled at Holy Trinity, Hermon Hill, Company 2566, on 13th November 1906. It was part of the 1st Battalion, St Alban's Regiment, and was recognised under Cadet Regulations. There were 14 active companies in the Battalion at this time, 10 of which were recognised Cadet Corps. Chaplain...Rev Palmer, Captain...E Chapman, Lts Black and Sprately.

[Guest]

    Conijoni- Thanks for CLB reference-It all helps.  But may I pick your brains again??  Could you enlighten me as to the source of your information?    I note that COPAC and BL list an Almanac   for CLB  but also a periodical called "The Brigade"- Unusually, the BL catalogue is a little oblique about this-holding only issues from 1980s onwards (as does the National Library of Wales)- but it is not clear whether this was a new journal from thence onwards or whether it had been going on for a long time and BL had only just picked it up

     I am aware that there are experts on CLB out there and blocs of material for its history  - but on another non-military topic, I found years ago that going to the national publication of a particular group-The Suffragettes-Womans Social and Political Union- that its little reports from branches were a good supplement to what was in the local papers. Could this-hopefully- be the case with CLB?

     On a vaguely related theme, one of the most useful sources I have found for local casualties is a parish magazine. A great many churches bought their magazine from the Church Publishing Company-full of the usual mawkish short stories or moralistic tales- but then printed up the parish stuff to go with it- so it became a little more susbstantive. So that locally, a run has survived for one church (alas not 1918 and 1919) which gives lists every month of those serving- the vicar pinned a list of those serving, to ask for prayers, on the door of the church for the entire duration of the war, which is useful in gauging when some men joined the army or whether they were in another regiment before being transferred to the unit in which they were killed. But it was only the sheer chance of remembering that there was a run of it in another archive centre that I got to use it- it was an "also ran" item-out of area -on the open shelves at another archive office (The LB Barking and Dagenham,at Vallence House- an excellent and fully equipped purpose-built archive centre)    

 

       Another local church has a complete run, which I have not as yet seen- but the whole history of these local news supplements to otherwise uninteresting church magazines seems a very neglected subject.  And as regards the church you have kindly helped me out with- Holy Trinity, Hermon Hill, the church does not hold a run . Pity-as I think these news supplements deserve a better audience-but their locations and extent seemed a wholly neglected subject-  Lambeth Palace Library has some  and were recently given a collection of a couple of hundred volumes but that is the tip of the iceberg as to what must be a useful source hither and thither -which,as far as I know, is used in many local areas but not surveyed or systematically inventoried or critically assessed as a source for the war

     

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

The Brigade - the official organ of the CLB - ran from 1894 to 1974 covering the Church Lads' only, and from 1978 onwards covering the amalgamated Church Lads' and Church Girls' Brigade.

 

In more recent times, there has been a move towards electronic newsletters hosted on the CLCGB website.

 

 

Edited 16 November , 2016 by MBrockway

[Guest]

   Thanks Mark-  Trouble is BL catalogue suggests a lack of holdings- which I think is wrong-It may well be that they are being copied or something similar- I got something of a grip from the listing of materials on "Discovery"

  Re-Empire men, BEL et al-  I think I know how to clarify this but I want to look up someones career in a bit more detail first.

      In short,the answer is not a direct link but the involvement of BEL with 1KEH, itself a follow-on from IY. Consequently, 2KEH and subsequent units are a bit more understandable. -Not direct  Empire-related units,other than KEH- but perhaps a friendly hand. The link appears to be the first Col of 1KEH-also connected with IY-and no surprise- a regular  officer of KRRC

     No names,no pack drill- But Canadian born, Red River Expedition, played cricket a lot.An you must know a lot more about him than I ever will!!!

          I am fairly sure he is the main link- his funeral was in West Hill, Wandsworth-and that cannot be just a coincidence given the one recruiting meeting meeting mentioned in British Empire Review-at Wandsworth Town Hall.  A summary of his obituary says he ran a volunteer depot during the war.

     As it is, a chance reference led me to the website for King Edwards Horse-which seems to be new this year- a fantastic bit of work-the best researched and best organised website for any military formation I have yet come across.So the exercise has been worth it just for that.

 

               And a small query- Given that recruiting for 17 KRRC,if not 20KRRC was sparked by this indvidual, might it show up as a slight statistical slew towards men from either west or southwest London??

    Over to you.

[MBrockway]

   Thanks Mark-  Trouble is BL catalogue suggests a lack of holdings- which I think is wrong-It may well be that they are being copied or something similar- I got something of a grip from the listing of materials on "Discovery"

  Re-Empire men, BEL et al-  I think I know how to clarify this but I want to look up someones career in a bit more detail first.

      In short,the answer is not a direct link but the involvement of BEL with 1KEH, itself a follow-on from IY. Consequently, 2KEH and subsequent units are a bit more understandable. -Not direct  Empire-related units,other than KEH- but perhaps a friendly hand. The link appears to be the first Col of 1KEH-also connected with IY-and no surprise- a regular  officer of KRRC

     No names,no pack drill- But Canadian born, Red River Expedition, played cricket a lot.An you must know a lot more about him than I ever will!!!

          I am fairly sure he is the main link- his funeral was in West Hill, Wandsworth-and that cannot be just a coincidence given the one recruiting meeting meeting mentioned in British Empire Review-at Wandsworth Town Hall.  A summary of his obituary says he ran a volunteer depot during the war.

     As it is, a chance reference led me to the website for King Edwards Horse-which seems to be new this year- a fantastic bit of work-the best researched and best organised website for any military formation I have yet come across.So the exercise has been worth it just for that.

 

               And a small query- Given that recruiting for 17 KRRC,if not 20KRRC was sparked by this indvidual, might it show up as a slight statistical slew towards men from either west or southwest London??

    Over to you.

I assume you're talking about Nesbit Wallace?  Very odd to tease us with so much information but withhold the man's actual name?

 

Wallace is probably most famous here on GWF as being half of Slade Wallace who designed the leather 1888 Pattern valise equipment.

 

Can you confirm please that the British Empire Review article about the KRRC recruiting meeting in Wandsworth mentions Nesbit Wallace as being present?

 

What was the date of this meeting?  Presumably mid 1915?

 

Nesbit Wallace did not die until 1931.  Unless there is explicit mention of Wallace present at the meeting, placing him there because of a funeral, also at Wandsworth, 16 years later seem very tenuous to me.  Also I believe he was living in Guildford at the time of his death.

 

You state confidently that Nesbit Wallace sparking recruitment into 17th and 20th KRRC is a "given".  What is your evidence for this?

 

A connection between Nesbit Wallace and Empire recruitment into King Edward's Horse is entirely feasible and there is much evidence for such.  Wallace was the first CO of the King's Colonials (later 1/KEH) in the Boer War in 1902.  That was nearly 20 years after he retired from the KRRC however, and he was 75 years old in 1914. Most of his work since retiring in 1883 seems to have been around yeomanry/mounted infantry, rather than directly with the 60th, and I believe his CMG was in connection with his IY career.

 

He is on the July 1915 Army List under 'Retired Majors with rank of Hon. Lt.-Col.' as 'late Imperial Yeomanry' and being on 'Recruiting Duties', so he definitely was out beating the drum, but he does not appear in any of the KRRC material describing recruitment in 1914 and 1915.  I suspect he was focussed on KEH.

 

Sir John "Empire Jack" Norton-Griffiths, who raised 2/KEH at his own expense, was on the original Executive Committee of the BEL.  It is clear that both KEH battalions definitely did attract many recruits from the Empire.

 

Your premise seems to be that Wallace's Empire connections (not in dispute) also lead to recruitment of returning Empire men into the two BEL-raised KRRC battalions.  However the vast majority of the 400+ Rhodesians who enlisted into the KRRC did not go into these battalions.

I know one of the 17/KRRC battalion majors (Maj. J.A. Methuen) was a former South Rhodesian Volunteer, and I know of a former Rhodesian mining engineer, formerly of the Rhodesian Regiment, who was an officer in 20/KRRC, but only in the Army of Occupation in 1919 - he had enlisted and fought in 2/KRRC.

 

17/KRRC initially only recruited in London and the original establishment of 20/KRRC was London (East End)/Somerset/County Durham.  No large Empire contingents whatsoever.

 

The recruitment campaign for 17/KRRC seems to have been administered principally by several former VF officers from the Surrey and Sussex VRC's, with BEL HQ at Norfolk House being the principal recruiting office.

 

I would be very interested to know if you found anything in the British Empire Review about the BEL subsidising a 2d. a day pay boost to the men in 20/KRRC, or if this is merely the standard Army-wide 2d per diem extra pioneer pay that I've always assumed.

Mark

 

PS Is this the KEH website you praise so highly?

 

 

 

[Guest]

  Blast!  -Thats my Christmas KRRC History Quiz down the drain then.

 

       Seriously- British Empire Review is a good source for general attitudes but not great for large amounts of specific details. The bulk of each month's issue-I read through 1914,1915 and 1916- is news items about the war but in particular the raising of forces elsewhere- Nova Scotia, the Royal Malta Regiment, Cyprus,etc. There is NO, I repeat NO indication that BEL played any part in this at all- My professional assessment is that BEL was a society that promoted imperial (as opposed to imperialist,which is something entirely different) objects along the lines of the consolidation of the Empire -the development of its economic resources and closer ties within the Empire (It does NOT appear to be an empire federalist group, as its former rival, the Imperial Federation League of the 1880s)

      Apart from general platitudes about raising units, there is no detail at all about these units or any involvement at all by BEL, other than footing the bill. At the beginning of the war-and before, it looks as though it provided a friendly hand to Colonials in London-and I am fairly sure that the history of KEH will show what the extent of Colonials in London and involvement in the military actually is. I suspect, on investigation, that the link between BEL and KEH will be the strongest.

      Right-now where does that leave KRRC in all of this?  Im no expert in the regiment, nor ever would be. The questions that come to mind for me are:

1)  Re- Wandsworth Recruiting Meeting- This is the only activity with regard to KRRC that gets a mention- and you have guessed that what I have planned to do is go off to BL-sometime next week- and, hopefully, look at the main Wandsworth  local paper for 1915-1916 and see whats what. I suspect strongly that Nesbit Wallace will crop up but I cannot guarantee it.

2) Whether there is any reference in the Wandsworth papers to KRRC- recruiting, etc-Or indeed BEL

3)  What I think is also a puzzle is why BEL is involved in the army units it was-   The link with 1 KEH is very clear indeed-and thus, 2 KEH is not exactly a blinding revelation. But why a Divisional Ammunition Column?  Not the sexiest thing in the world- the more so after the experiences of the Boer War and the "glamour" of the mounted infantry regiments. My suspicion is that  Nesbit Wallace may have taken the lead- asked/volunteered to form a Div Amm Col and that he sought help from BEL-financial, of course. Its a chicken and egg argument but I would like to get to the bottom of it. As regards 17 and 20 KRRC, my question would be- what is the War Office paperwork as to why and how these battalions were raised???  But you should be far ahead of me on that.

4)  A larger general question re. recruiting raises up-  The War Office authorised the raising of pals battalions and formally took them over at some stage. This indicates some degree of planning as to what was needed in terms of manpower requirements, recruiting areas, demographic structure-and,of course, the avoidance of direct competition between different unit formers-  It also implies that the WO must have turned down some requests to form or raise units-a wholly unknown subject-at least to me.

 

         So lets see what the Wandsworth papers have to say. In addition, with someone as interesting as Nesbit Wallace,it would be good to know if he left any surviving papers- I suspect not but the basic rule of History research I was taught was that unless you have absolutely firm evidence that a bloc of records has been destroyed, then continue to live in hope, assume it continues to exist and if you get lucky, it will pop up somewhere.

[MBrockway]

I'm still confused - have you seen any mention of Nesbit Wallace at all in the BEL's British Empire Review?

 

 

[MBrockway]

       Seriously- British Empire Review is a good source for general attitudes but not great for large amounts of specific details. The bulk of each month's issue-I read through 1914,1915 and 1916- is news items about the war but in particular the raising of forces elsewhere- Nova Scotia, the Royal Malta Regiment, Cyprus,etc. There is NO, I repeat NO indication that BEL played any part in this at all- My professional assessment is that BEL was a society that promoted imperial (as opposed to imperialist,which is something entirely different) objects along the lines of the consolidation of the Empire -the development of its economic resources and closer ties within the Empire (It does NOT appear to be an empire federalist group, as its former rival, the Imperial Federation League of the 1880s)

 

The Imperial Federation League had basically collapsed over the federal question.

 

The BEL categorically excluded political federation from its Objects.

 

This is from a BEL report of 1896 describing the business of the British Empire League ...

 

 

Here are the formal Objects from the BEL constitution - thought I'd already posted these for you, but I must have neglected it.

 

 

Clause 2 should not be interpreted as promoting a federal Commonwealth - see the gobbet above.

 

Mark

 

[Guest]

    Thanks Mark-  IFL had some grand schemes for the federation of the empire- such as an imperial Parliament. The main proponent of this sort of stuff was a barrister from Victoria living in and working in London - one Francis Peter De Labilliere (Yes, the general of Gulf and Falklands is his direct descendant). This proved to be a hopeless scheme and IFL collapses/fades. In general, the moves thereafter are for closer "unity"-   which could be anything from the Imperial Conferences to the series of enduring institutions put through -mostly in the Edwardian era- School of HYgiene and Tropical Medicine, Colonial Nursing Association, Colonial Entomological Bureau,etc,etc,etc- Having largely finished the "pegging out claims for posterity" and moving on to "developing the estate"- a particular theme of Joseph Chamberlain. There are schemes for the formal "Federation of the Empire" but these never really progress.  BEL is fair square in all of this- promoting closer ties but not a one-off imperial-federal state (Now where have I heard all of this stuff about "ever closer union", its advantages and disadvantages,etc- why does "23rd June" ring in my ear.?)  

      2) No,Wallace does not get a mention-hence my desire tee what is what re Wandsworth

[MBrockway]

        2) No,Wallace does not get a mention-hence my desire t[o s]ee what is what re Wandsworth

 

Right: Nesbit Wallace is not mentioned in the British Empire Review.

 

Do you have any evidence that Nesbit Wallace was a member of the British Empire League or connected to them in any way?

[MBrockway]

 As regards 17 and 20 KRRC, my question would be- what is the War Office paperwork as to why and how these battalions were raised???  But you should be far ahead of me on that.

 

Far ahead? 

 

Not really, since I already gave you this in Post #96 above - WO Letter 20/Gen No/3810 dated 16 Apr 1915 ...

 

 

It goes without saying that I would love to see that letter when you have found it!  There's no way I'll be able to get to Kew myself to look it up in the near, or even medium term

 

Mark

[Guest]

   Thanks Mark- Yes, I had noticed your posting!!   Really- but it is a typical  formalised WO thing- more the end product of a process than the ins-and-outs of how they got there. As I say- I may ask for Forum help on the general problem of  new battalions of 1914-Im sure the stuff is out there.

    On reflection, I suspect the BEL and Nesbit Wallace may have acted at the behest of the War Office -the answer as to why a Div Amm Column may be that the larger cities-without specific territorially based regiments to sump up manpower to its limits may have been leaned on to provide the artillery and back-up. East Ham-over here in East London certainly was-And I cant imagine that this would be a first choice of patriotic locals but a de facto agreement with the War Office about what was needed. Or it could just be that happy memories of numerous pints of Youngs beers-brewed in Wandsworth and pulled around by heavy horses for many years is distorting my memory. Or was that just the alcohol.....  Seriously, I expect that despite all  the "War Horse" stuff the immediate requirements of the army for horses,drivers and related manpower came quickly from the cities- August 1914 was after all, harvest.

[MBrockway]

You've only mentioned Nesbit Wallace in connection with commanding a yeomanry unit in the Boer War and his Wandsworth funeral in 1931.

 

What have you got with Nesbit Wallace showing up in the 1914 and 1915 sources beyond his listing in the July 1915 Army List on 'Recruiting Duties'?

 

What have you got from the Boer War period showing the British Empire League was involved in raising the 4th County of London Imperial Yeomanry (King's Colonials) in 1901?

 

[MBrockway]

            I am fairly sure he [Col. Nesbit Willoughby Wallace] is the main link- his funeral was in West Hill, Wandsworth-and that cannot be just a coincidence given the one recruiting meeting meeting mentioned in British Empire Review-at Wandsworth Town Hall.

 

What's your source for Col. Nesbit Willoughby Wallace's funeral being at West Hill, Wandsworth?

 

I have his funeral at 12 noon Wed 05 Aug 1931 at the Garrison Church, Winchester Barracks, Winchester, Hants..  His addresses at death were Gloucester House, Chiswick, and Lea Holme, Waterden Road, Guildford, Surrey, where he died on 31 Jul 1931.  I cannot see any Wandsworth connection.

 

 

Could you possibly have got confused with Charles Stebbing WALLACE, Canon of Southwark, who died 15 Nov 1914, and whose funeral was held at Wandsworth Cemetery on 19 Nov 1914 after a requiem at Ascension Church, Lavender Hill?  Canon C.S. Wallace was not connected to King Edward's Horse as far as I can see.

 

[Guest]

   Mark- Thanks- I had already realised -by chance- that there is a West Hill in Winchester-its the product of living in London too long.

So grovel,grovel and off to BL for the Wandsworth papers next Wednesday. See whats what

[MBrockway]

[conijoni]

    Conijoni- Thanks for CLB reference-It all helps.  But may I pick your brains again??  Could you enlighten me as to the source of your information?    I note that COPAC and BL list an Almanac   for CLB  but also a periodical called "The Brigade"- Unusually, the BL catalogue is a little oblique about this-holding only issues from 1980s onwards (as does the National Library of Wales)- but it is not clear whether this was a new journal from thence onwards or whether it had been going on for a long time and BL had only just picked it up

 

The CLB archive is very extensive. At one time the Brigade was a major youth organisation but over time has declined. It is still very vibrant in some areas of the UK. The founder, Walter Gee, was very particular. The Brigade monthly magazine contained reports of companies and a gazette of appointments. The Brigade List was produced yearly and listed all the companies in their battalions, all the chaplains and officers with dates of enrolment and appointments. The last List was produced in early 1914, for obvious reasons. The monthly magazine was a fantastic source between the 1890s and 1919. After that a slimmed down magazine became the norm and contained a gazette of appointments until the 1970s. During the 1914/18 war The Brigade carried supplements with list after list of CLB men who had enlisted and as the war progressed pictures of men killed. There was a monthly report about the 16th KRRC. The HMSO Cadet Lists are quite useful. The CLB archive is in South Yorkshire.

[MBrockway]

There's a near complete set of The Brigade in the Bod ... not to mention Johnny's CLB/LDLB books!