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ARMY COUNCIL ORDERS- TRANSFERS OF DRAFTS


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Thanks Kevin - I'll add in any Church Lads' Brigade background once I've bent sent some further details to use.

 

Out of interest, what was his actual enlistment date?  From R/8140 I would estimate late Nov/early Dec 1914, but as we know from your work, old pre-conceptions may now be inaccurate!

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On 04/11/2016 at 14:25, MBrockway said:

Thanks Kevin - I'll add in any Church Lads' Brigade background once GUEST has sent me some further details to use.

 

Out of interest, what was his actual enlistment date?  From R/8140 I would estimate late Nov/early Dec 1914, but as we know from your work, old pre-conceptions may now be inaccurate!

 

Born Tooting, enlisted Stratford 14th December 1914, discharged 17th.

 

Kevin

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Recruiting, even before the War, had always been a problem, especially in those counties which were more Rural in their outlook. Recruiters were given names of units to which to recruit for, other than their local unit. The outbreak of the War changed all of that as recruits teemed in to fill out county regiments, but only for a short time. Units recruiting in counties with industrial centres had no problems at all, and you even had situations where rural units went to these areas to obtain recruits. The 13th Bn, Gloucesters(Forest of Dean)Pioneers, came especially to the North East to recruit and took out an advertisement locally to assist in their cause in which about two hundred men from the region answered the call.

 

In the case of the Irish Regiments - the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers took hundreds of recruits from the North East and this was documented in our regional newspapers.

 

From my collection of ACI's I have a couple of early ones which may be of interest to you and will post these seperately.

Edited by Graham Stewart
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ACI 319 - 29th Oct  1914.jpg

 

ACI 319 of the 29th October 1914 regarding recruits for Irish regiments.

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ACI 61 7th April 1915.jpg

It is desired as time goes on to make Urban recruiting less local, and to gradually introduce the system of posting all recruits to any regiment where they are required.

(L.27/Gen No./4170, A.G.2b)

 

ACI 61 of the 7th April 1915

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    Graham and Andy-  Thanks for further interesting information- Andy, what you say from Major Tod makes absolute sense- One way Your Humble has tried to spot drafts going out from London is to run all of the casualties for that regiment on CWGC, then put them in service number order on the resultant Excel speadsheet that downloads- It can be quite helpful, as the addresses of family given at the end of CWGC data can indicate an out-of-area-draft.

     The little chap Rivolta from Wanstead I have as 8140, rather than an "R" in the front-  there are 3 other casualties,of the few given in the range 8100-8200 that are from London, suggesting a small draft of 50-100.

   But in the series R-then numbers in the 7000 and 8000 range come across very strongly indeed as West Midlands and Lancashire.

    Casualties only, hit and miss as far as where parent/wives lived after the war and amateurish-but it does work in a shorthand way to get some grip on drafts going out from here(Lets face it,Im unlikely to find a draft coming INTO London!!)

 

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    Graham and Andy-  Thanks for further interesting information- Andy, what you say from Major Tod makes absolute sense- One way Your Humble has tried to spot drafts going out from London is to run all of the casualties for that regiment on CWGC, then put them in service number order on the resultant Excel speadsheet that downloads- It can be quite helpful, as the addresses of family given at the end of CWGC data can indicate an out-of-area-draft.

     The little chap Rivolta from Wanstead I have as 8140, rather than an "R" in the front-  there are 3 other casualties,of the few given in the range 8100-8200 that are from London, suggesting a small draft of 50-100.

   But in the series R-then numbers in the 7000 and 8000 range come across very strongly indeed as West Midlands and Lancashire.

    Casualties only, hit and miss as far as where parent/wives lived after the war and amateurish-but it does work in a shorthand way to get some grip on drafts going out from here(Lets face it,Im unlikely to find a draft coming INTO London!!)

 

I repeat what I said in an earlier post - in the KRRC and RB, all-numeric Service Numbers without letter prefixes were only issued to men enlisting as Regulars (seven years with the Colours and five years on the Reserve), which of course continued during the war.

 

The KRRC 8140 service number and those in the 8100-8200 range around it enlisted as a Regular in 1907, or possibly very early in 1908.  They would not have been in 'drafts'.

 

Your chap was definitely R/8140.

 

What is your source for a service number of 8140 without the R prefix?

 

 

 

 

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    Graham and Andy-  Thanks for further interesting information- Andy, what you say from Major Tod makes absolute sense- One way Your Humble has tried to spot drafts going out from London is to run all of the casualties for that regiment on CWGC, then put them in service number order on the resultant Excel speadsheet that downloads- It can be quite helpful, as the addresses of family given at the end of CWGC data can indicate an out-of-area-draft.

     The little chap Rivolta from Wanstead I have as 8140, rather than an "R" in the front-  there are 3 other casualties,of the few given in the range 8100-8200 that are from London, suggesting a small draft of 50-100.

  

 

OK, see where you are coming from here. However after the Military Services Act what battalion had any original make up left, or any particular area of recruits with casualties being filled in from wherever as you have alluded to in previous posts. There are a couple of Glaswegians, Irish or from wherever in the battalion not original men, bearing in mind Tod was only with the battalion for it's formation and early part of training before moving on. The original men, and those discharged early in the war for various reasons tie in well with Tod's first hand experience of the battalion, remembering also that the 8th were split due to many men (over 500 in "C" Company alone) and form the 11th RB in late 1914.

The CWGC data can be quite helpful, as you state, including the errors, but the 8th RB of say 1918 was very very different from the original battalion and it's make up, as were most if not all battalions. From my experience in digging up what I can about the 8th Tod's summary rings pretty accurately. In September 1916 for example we see the arrival of the B/2***** (A/2***** in the KRRC) number range, most of these men were from totally different regiments originally with a lot being base grabs, i.e. B/200001 to B/20035 coming from the Leicesters, next batch from the N. Staffs etc.

 

Andy

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Apologies for my error- not accessing the download from Ancestry on an old stick- I try usually to get all prefix numbers listed-if only because I dont know what some of them stand for!!-  And the ASN website is perpetually useful.

    But thanks for all of your help-as ever-I took this project up to try and keep my mind alert while knocked out by a long-term bout of physical illness and to try and learn a skill-set (Ugh-horrible modern management term) in addition to more usual History stuff from Uni. days. So every correction, nugget of imparted knowledge coming in from good folk on this Forum helps build a better picture of the world the casualties lived in. MY local war memorial in Wanstead was chosen for starters because it is eroded-It started with 223 names-its down to 190 now-it was re-faced -probably sometime after WW2-and some names are wrong,as guesses were made as to what the eroded names were. Some had effectively no connection with the area other than a parent or relative living there when the memorial was being organised in 1921-a couple of Canadians-one whose sister lived locally,so he probably only ever hit the place on leave-and as he didnt make it through 1915,then even more limited in his connections.

      Mark-Thanks- I hope the other side of Winter to get down to Winchester- the medals of another local casualty of interest are there-Captain John Calder,LRB.  Craig-Just noticed that you have had some successes with "In From the Cold"- a couple of them locally to me might need a little guidance from you in time-I put details about one-a KRRC man on another thread,guessing that it would likely be a Forum member who would have been involved-and another looks like being fruitful.

   Andy- Im sure that more queries will emerge on the 1914 men and I will pick your brains again- I have as yet to tackle the archives of the next local authority, Newham, but I will be looking out for stuff about the recruiting arrangements in Stratford in 1914-which is where most of the local men went. The CWGC gambit is just a plaything to get a rough idea-It was that that showed some Highland enlistments,when the subject was completely unknown to me and Patrick Watt kindly helped me out. Its been helpful before-suggesting when men enlisted together that they might have known each other-or, for instance, a lad killed with the London Irish on 24th December 1915 (May well have been Christmas Day-the war diary is distinctly evasive) - another casualty of the same action has a very close service number and a very close home address.Only a daft little thing but Im grappling with a jigsaw with many pieces missing-and you folks provide the missing ones!!

 

I stand in awe (Well,its a Saturday morning-I sit in awe,with my coffee) of the knowledge you all have and the friendly spirit in which it is imparted.

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It is like a jigsaw sometimes. One problem that I came across with CWGC data is for the families and locations (besides the sometimes inaccurate information such as erroneous dates of death, numbers etc), that can be a jigsaw on it's own. On many occasions they list the families residence where the family moved to later, say during wartime or just prior. Whereas they originally came from Blankington on sea or that their children moved from Blankington themselves and settled in say Wanstead for work or their wife came from the area if applicable.

The town I live in boasts a VC, however, the parents moved here in 1915 and the soldier himself had never been here in his life. There is also a man from a Scottish Regiment with relatives in the town (his parents had died) hence his relatives are named, once again to the best of my knowledge that particular soldier had never been here but it caused a few scratched heads to finally get the answer.

A jigsaw indeed.

Edited by stiletto_33853
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Apologies for my error- not accessing the download from Ancestry on an old stick- I try usually to get all prefix numbers listed-if only because I dont know what some of them stand for!!-  And the ASN website is perpetually useful.

 

If you mean Pal Paul Nixon's website, then in general I wholeheartedly agree, but there are some caveats on his information about the KRRC and RB.

 

His data on the all-numeric service numbers allocated to the Regulars, was (as far as I know) based on his own researches.

 

For all-numeric service numbers lower than ~13400 these are 100% reliable. 

 

All-numeric SN's above 13400 need to be interpreted very carefully.  The data (both the original source data & our modern digitisations) contains errors and there are also some traps for the unwary. e.g. int. al.

  • SN Letter prefixes omitted - common on the digitised MIC Indices, but also seen on CWGC and even on Service Records;
  • 5/ and 6/ prefix SN's missing their '/' prefix separator and looking like high range all-numerics;
  • letter prefixes being mis-transcribed as numbers - '8' for 'R' (or 'S' in the RB) is quite common
  • blocks in the 40xxx to 61xxx ranges were used for transfers from TF, other regiments and the TR
  • in RB, the nine TF battalions/depot inherited from the National Reserve, each had their own numeric numbering & later were re-numbered as part of the TF-wide renumbering.

 

With the KRRC and RB letter/number prefixes (on his Army-wide Number Prefixes page) however, there are some deeper inaccuracies.

 

There Paul draws on the old 'received wisdom' Rifles numbering schema, not his own researches.  It was based on work done 10-15 years back on the Rifles BW&VM and SWB medal rolls, much of it by respected Pals here, but the large scale corroboration against actual service records was less practical then when these were only available for inspection at Kew. 

 

Our more recent work - particularly Kevin's research - have revealed the old schema to be totally wrong in some areas, and imprecise in others.  Paul's site does not yet reflect this and Paul's KRRC page makes it clear he will be delving into the prefixed SN's in a Blog yet to come.

 

His descriptions of usage of the A/, B/, Y/, and Z/ are no longer completely applicable.

 

He generalises the C/ prefix as 16th - 21st KRRC, which is safe, but the original schema split the C/ range into blocks for each individual battalion.  Work by Pal conijoni has shown that the blocks for 18/KRRC and 20/KRRC were wrong.

 

All-in-all the Rifles SN's are not simple.  If a Pal's research on a riflemen is important, then you're best off posting a Q so one of us can give some advice.  This also helps us anyway.  Approx 65,000 men went overseas as part of the KRRC with further men enlisting but never making it out.  Spotting individuals with revealing Service Number histories in this haystack is a large job, so it's helpful when other Pals draw our attention to any "funnies".

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

 

 

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Andy-thanks for the moral support.  By far the greatest task in doing my humble roll has been establishing who should be on it-Although Wanstead was a separate borough in 1914, there is no agreed contemporary list of casualties- the local paper is not much good either- for a great part of the war, both the local papers carried little about it-indeed one (OK, run by a pacifist family) carried no reports of casualties at all after 1915.

     War memorials are of course, skewed to who stumped up to pay for them after the war-hence some men on the Wanstead one who have effectively no connection-but my colleague Adrian Lee who did Woodford, established a set of criteria-the first of which is that if the person is on a memorial then they are counted in. The second main memorial is in a local church-again, problematic as it includes many from outside the parish and outside the borough- why people worshipped at a particular church gets one into all the old debates of High Church,Low Church,etc. Again,if listed,they are in.

     CWGC is both a godsend and, in closer work, a bit of a curse. Yes, its the best record by far. One reason I am prepared to be shot down or ask seemingly daft questions is to get more of a grip on the OR casualties from the Somme onwards- I find there are more and more transfers between regiments late on and CWGC has the old one- inevitable given the fortunes of war and the destruction of the service records. Hence, small sources-such as Soldiers Effects- have to be learnt- its not much good to find out that a soldier was killed serving with another regiment- it makes their story wrong on the most important element-how they met their ends. Similarly, CWGC can be annoyingly wrong on dates

     Thus far I have 3 names only that I cannot trace- 2 that are on a church memorial but I cannot trace anyone with even the remotest connection-one is a "D.Frazer"-only 2 of them in the whole war (with a Z)- that could possibly fit and its neither. And one name on a memorial that has eroded who I suspect may have died before it was opened in April 1922 but is a late "In From the Cold "casualty-  I think I know who it is but cannot find  a civil death record-though,of course, rarely, the civil BMD records can be wrong as well.

       There is a scene at the beginning of "The Cruel Sea" where Ericson (Jack Hawkins) cannot return a salute from 2 newly arrived Subs as he is not wearing his cap- he remarks "Its not important but you may as well get it right"  Suits me- but actual circumstances of death should be as accurate as I can get it.

         This week I have a spectacle that to me makes this little enterprise worthwhile. The Royal British Legion ( a fundamentally worthwhile organisation) will parade in front of the local war memorial and the usual wreaths will be laid-"We Will Remember Them"- But they dont!!  The memorial was eroded within a few years of opening and many names are lost-the least I can do is try and get some sort of restoration. Quite how we can have the "We Will Remember Them" ceremonies in front of a memorial that is obviously lacking is something I find personally unacceptable.

    So,I'll make my mistakes and learn my lessons- and try to get it right in the end.

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Mark-Im looking at my handful of KRRC casualties in fear!!  No,just joking-thank you for the useful addition- One casualty may need some brain-picking from you-  CARR  FRANCIS HENRY  .28/04/1918   Rifleman  King's Royal Rifle Corps20th Bn.   France   'C/9845'

    He is the only "C"-I'll look at what meagre stuff I have before I do anything.

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I really do not mind whether you believe my posts or not, but anything I have written can be confirmed from looking at mens service records. This will show you he was an original recruit of the 20th Btn., 

 Kevin

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Mark-Im looking at my handful of KRRC casualties in fear!!  No,just joking-thank you for the useful addition- One casualty may need some brain-picking from you-  CARR  FRANCIS HENRY  .28/04/1918   Rifleman  King's Royal Rifle Corps20th Bn.   France   'C/9845'

    He is the only "C"-I'll look at what meagre stuff I have before I do anything.

His war gratuity would indicate 28 months qualifying service at the time of his death.

 

Craig

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Kevin's correct, he was in 20/KRRC, and from the BW&VM roll, he only served overseas in that battalion.  From the C/9845 SN, it would also be safe to assume he was one of the original establishment, as Kevin says

 

This was a pioneer battalion, so perhaps more unusual.  They were in the CHOCQUES area in late April 1918.

 

I'll check the battalion data I have and report back, but it won't be for a while - REAL LIFE is calling!

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway
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Mark- Get thee back to real life in Cheshire with all my blessings.

Craig-Thanks for the heads-up on gratuity-You offered to let me into the secrets of your gratuity calculator-I had a go at it online  an found it very helpful- Nice to know the Army Pay Corps clerks and the like were accurate before the files got stored in Walworth- As it is Bonfire Night tonight,the less said about that episode the better

     The only figure I have difficulty with is £3/10/-   Could you enlighten me??

 

     I feel I am stumbling in the dark a little but the service number info., plus Soldiers Effects is beginning to pay off -and I must be on top of it to tackle 1917-1918-its a mess. 

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 The only figure I have difficulty with is £3/10/-   Could you enlighten me??

 

I'd suspect that will be a net payment - occasionally the net payments are marked up as Type 1 instead of Type 2 gratuities (It seems to me that there was a period where some clerks seemed to have trouble with how the recording went).

 

£3 10s net would be £5 10s gross (with the £2 basic service gratuity) - 13 months service for a private.

 

If it seems odd based on what else you have send me a message and I can look further to double check.

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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6 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Kevin's correct, he was in 20/KRRC, and from the BW&VM roll, he only served overseas in that battalion.  From the C/9845 SN, it would also be safe to assume he was one of the original establishment, as Kevin says

 

This was a pioneer battalion, so perhaps more unusual.  They were in the CHOCQUES area in late April 1918.

 

I'll check the battalion data I have and report back, but it won't be for a while - REAL LIFE is calling!

Mark

 

 

Here's their location on 18 Apr 1918 from the OH.  They were in the same positions until Aug 1918.

(OH-1918-II-24) Lys-Georgette 18 Apr 1918.jpg

They were flat out attempting to dig and wire defensive lines in the face of Operation Georgette.  The S flank of the enemy advance had been stemmed on a line based on the LA BASSEE and LAWE CANALS.  20/KRRC were strengthening the HINGES-LOCON line between MT BERNERCHON on the left and the BETHUNE-NEUVE CHAPELLE road (the RUE DU BOIS) on the right.  The RUE DU BOIS is not shown on the map above, but it crosses the Front Line at the Brigade boundary marked immediately below the 1/NF position

 

The battalion history mentions "nasty casualties" from enfilade fire on one night in the RUE DU BOIS area between BETHUNE and the village of ESSARS (not shown, but to the NE of BETHUNE just over the LA BASSEE CANAL).  Unfortunately no date is given and I do not have the 20/KRRC War Diary yet.

 

The whole sector is described as 'hot' at this time, so many of the working parties would have been under enemy fire, with steady casualties from routine pioneer work.

 

HTH.

Mark

Edited by MBrockway
Forgot to add map!
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As regards 20/KRRC's formation and early days in Blighty, they were raised by the British Empire League on 20 August 1915 (NB) in London.

 

Initial recruitment was slow (remember this was 1915, not 1914) with only a dozen men in the first fortnight, and the first 100 only reached in mid October.  By the end of November [Edit: WRONG! 1914] 1915, they were just short of 800.  By February 1916, they had passed 1,000.

 

20/KRRC's block begins at C/9001, so his C/9845 SN would point to an enlistment in Dec 1915, roughly consistent with the 28 months service from his War Gratuity.

 

On the SWB roll, C/9871 enlisted on 11 Dec 1915, so Carr must have been a few days before then.

 

The large majority of the original establishment were from the East End, particularly the Woolwich area, but there were also groups from Somerset and County Durham.  Many of the latter were from mining backgrounds and proved ideal pioneers.

 

The battalion history states that "the 20th was at the beginning, and despite the drafting of all and sundry reinforcements to it in later days, it remained, essentially a battalion of Londoners."

 

Initial parades were at Devonshire House (gone now, but opposite Green Park tube - search the Forum - there's a topic on this) with drills in Green Park.  Trench construction practice was held on GWR railway land further west - possibly the Old Oak Common depot (again, there's a topic on this here if you do a search).

 

You may have seen this 20/KRRC BEL Pioneers recruiting march postcard doing the rounds.  Many are the hours I have spent on Google StreetView trying to identify the exact location- presumably somewhere in Piccadilly/Green Park area!  You may have better luck from the top deck front seat of a double decker armed with your trusty TfL card!

 

Unfortunately it's been very widely distributed by the repro postcard trade, so I've never been able to identify its original source.  Others have reported a Nov 1915 date, but no idea how reliable this is.  If it is, then too early for Francis Carr to be one of the men :(

recruitmarch.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by MBrockway
Implementing Derek's spot from lower down ;-)
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   Mark-thank you very much indeed for all of this-  You have now got me going with that postcard,which I do not know-BUT as I I have lived in London for over 40 years and went to Uni. in the centre,that picture is irritating the living daylights out of me because I just about recognise it- I think it may be the north side of Shaftesbury Avenue between Charing Cross Road and New Oxford Street- a site now)or recently occupied by Trust House Forte. There again,it might be hopelessly wrong. The theatre poster (left of Oxo) should be able to date it if enlarged.-Which I will give a go- If I can get an angle on the name on the pen shopthen PO LOndon Directory should give an answer

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29 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

As regards 20/KRRC's formation and early days in Blighty, they were raised by the British Empire League on 20 August 1915 (NB) in London.

 

Initial recruitment was slow (remember this was 1915, not 1914) with only a dozen men in the first fortnight, and the first 100 only reached in mid October.  By the end of November 1914, they were just short of 800.  By February 1916, they had passed 1,000.


A sneaky 1914 crept in there! ^_^

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1 minute ago, Derek Black said:


A sneaky 1914 crept in there! ^_^

 

Dang!  And I thought I was being so careful!  Well spotted - I'll edit it now :thumbsup:

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