ARMY COUNCIL ORDERS- TRANSFERS OF DRAFTS

[Guest]

  Re-  WH Shail and AE Gerrard- Yes, I have both of them listed for Wanstead, though Arthur Egbert Gerrard is currently listed as a "possible but unlikely"-  There is no local evidence that I have that his parents moved from the Stoke Newington area  to Wanstead prior to his death. He is just on the cusp of the compilation of the 1918 Epping Electoral Register  and the parents are not listed there- so its a moot point if he was local as,at best, his parents only moved to the area just a few weeks before the register date. 

      I have kept AE Gerrard on the stocks as it is just possible that he is related to Dudley Scarfe Gerrard, a casualty of 1st Bn and whose service numbers are only 5 apart - R23510 and R23515. Again,there is little connection with Wanstead by the parents -who are connected to the Stoke Newington area- DS Gerrard is on Stamford Hill War Memorial. Parents are listed as Wanstead for 1914 Kelly Essex but by then the son was married-and likely in Stamford Hill.  Alas, I have not worked down either of them in detail.- but DS Gerrard probably gets the nod because there are several parents who moved to the area after their sons were adult. Both Gerrard families were in a better part of Wanstead  and not far apart, that was a new-build estate as the war was beginning-so a family connection is a distinct possibility

      Shail I have-again, not worked down - but the local connection is clear-buried in the local churchyard is a bit of a clue.

 

   Apologies- it was Church Lads Brigade I meant- a colleague and friend, Adrian Lee, has done the next borough, Woodford (and done it well) and picked up a few early recruits to KRRC- I think from one particular church-Holy Trinity, Hermon Hill. Pre-conscription assignments to regiments with no local connection to either the person or by regiment do stand out-now partly explained by your previous post. My only concern was a casualty,David Rivolta, Originally 8140 KRRC-his service record with KRRC has survived,if only because it was stuck with another Rivolta. Kicked out in 1914 as not likely to make,etc,etc. There I cannot see a KRRC battalion listed but you may have a battalion number for him. There is also  Percy Randolph Smith,aka Paul Rudolf Smith, listed originally as 13th Rifle Brigade at Winchester, a former pupil of Bancrofts School (see website), who was kicked out for being underage-later killed with the London Rifle Brigade- He and Rivolta flag up a little interest, made by me in a previous thread about underage soldiers being culled out late in 1914 in KRRC/RB units around Winchester-I suspect there may have been a local initiative to do this but your researches are probably much further ahead than mine- Mine is a local Roll but I want to hit what records there are reasonably hard as it helps gives individuality to their lives,however meagre the details- The CWGC has been both a curse and a blessing through the centennial years-a blessing because it is more thorough than any other source for a straight listing of casualties- a curse because of the large number of supposed Rolls that are nothing more than a production of hitting CWGC with "Search on Keyword" and shoving in the name of a place- The Gerrards show the peril of that approach- Parents moving after the death of so and giving their 1920s addresses are just plain awkward.

    

     

[Guest]

 Back again- I think the most awkward KRRC casualty I have is likely to be Charles Abercrombie McGavin, merchant navy officer, enlisted 7 KRRC 1914, Sergeant. Commissioned 1915, Hants R but died attached to 5 KRRC. Died of illness (looks like some form of cancer-liver,stomach pancreas). A late entrant as grave at Hove has not long been listed as a war grave

[johnboy]

6 hours ago, MBrockway said:

I don't think the Boys Brigade had links to the KRRC.  The Governor & Commandant of the Church Lads' Brigade was Field Marshal Grenfell, who was a KRRC rifleman and who raised the KRRC's 16th Battalion specifically for past and present members of the CLB who wished to enlist into the army.  Are you thinking of the CLB?

 

The only BB connection I have ever managed to find was a Boy Brigade Band used the KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion drill hall in Sun Street, Finsbury Square for performances.

 

This has been a long-term research project of mine, so if you have any evidence of BB-KRRC links, I would be very interested in seeing it!

 

The 16/HLI were a BB 'Pals' battalion raised in Glasgow, but I very much doubt if Londoners would enlist.  The BB's heartland was in Scotland of course.

 

 

 

 

It was published by the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee in 1915.

 

What do you mean by amended?  The RMP Duration of War part?  I've only ever seen this 1915 version, I'm afraid.

Mark

 

(Sorry - separate replies got merged!)

 

 

I need to check some attestations , but my reason for the question might possibly need a new thread.

[Guest]

Mark-  Back yet again- "Depot sweepings" is just a term I have seen used- those knocked out by wounds or illness, got back to fitness at some base depot in UK the part of penny parcel drafts when ready- as required by any battalion of that regiment.

    Your advertisement as to elite recruiting rings true-but then again not!!  One or 2 casualties of 1914 enlistment did enlist in "outside" regiments, for want of a better term. But I think they were few and far between- Most of casualties for Wanstead and Woodford with middle class backgrounds headed straight for HAC or LRB, the "City" elite battalions, while the Scots made for London Scottish, rather than Scottish regiments- those who went to Highland regiments were native Londoners- those who were Scots in London seem not to have gone for "home" enlistment.

    The advert has also an "in accordance with instructions" provision- which I think must have been invoked pretty early on- I have no casualties from the Guards from any K recruiting, so I think that must have been cut off very quickly-and only a couple for cavalry regiments. RFA/RHA recruits stand out as working class and used to hard physical work- laborers,gardeners,etc. I would hazard a guess-and this is just a guess- that early recruiting to both KRRC and RB would show a slew-perhaps only slight- to those from (Lets use the good old "Come Dancing" term)-"Home Counties South"

[themonsstar]

AO250/1916

Part 2

[themonsstar]

Last bit

[MBrockway]

 I would hazard a guess-and this is just a guess- that early recruiting to both KRRC and RB would show a slew-perhaps only slight- to those from (Lets use the good old "Come Dancing" term)-"Home Counties South"

 

You do not seem to understand that the KRRC and the RB were national regiments and, TBH, there seems to be a lot of guessing going on here.

 

What evidence do you have for an assertion that 'Home Counties South' dominated their early recruiting?

 

Large numbers of the early enlisters came from the urban/industrial centres of the North and the Midlands.

 

[johnboy]

Some men probably enlisted because they saw it as a way to have a steady wage and be fed regularly  and to get away from the bad conditions which they were living under.

These men were probably from the large cities.

Men living in the countryside probably had more steadier jobs [agriculture] . Food was probably not so much a problem although the wages may have been low.

In the early stages of the ar I think men had a choice of regiments. As time went on they were enlisted into the Army. This meant that they could be sent to any regiment.  A lot of these men would have had a GS prefix to their service number. Unfortunately not all records show the prefix. They can be found on attestation document.

[MBrockway]

My understanding is enlisters had a choice of regiment right until the end of the Derby Scheme in Dec 1916.

Is this incorrect?

 

One of the key selling points of the Derby Scheme was precisely that this was a man's last chance to choose his destination before the MSA came into force.

 

[Guest]

The fatal casualty data for the K1 battalions in 1915 will provide a reliable sample of where their recruits came from. I suspect KRRC and Rifle Brigade will have a heavy lean towards Londoners.

 

Edit. Looking at the first years' worth of CWGC data for the 7th, 8th and 9th Bn KRRC, 21% were Londoners (the single largest group) followed by 11% from Birmingham and then a long tail from just about every English County. 

 

The patterns for recruiting for K1 battalions are rather complex. There are some 'Regional' factors: Irish stand political off inhibited 10th (Irish) Div and the harvest slowed 12th (Eastern) Div. One needs to recognise that County Regiments had competing TF Battaliosn trying to recruits as well. 

 

Recruiting was ultimately a function of population density. If we look at the battalions that filled over 2,000 men in the first few weeks and 3,000 men and even 4,000 men, they are almost all in heavily populated industrial areas. Some regiments stopped recruiting when the hit their targets, others kept the door open. The 8th Bn Cheshire Regiment had over 4,000 recruits. 

 

For high density London, the TF battalions were already fairly well recruited and their second lines filled up very quickly simply because of the massive population density. Many Londoners therefore went elsewhere to find opportunities. Given the KRRC and Rifle Brigade could recruit in London, it is no surprise that this would attract men. In early Sep 1914 Kitchener dictated that surplus men from K1 recruiting should be transferred to battalions which were short of recruits. The tables below highlight those battalion with more than 2,000 recruits. The KRRC and Rifle Brigade were reasonably well recruited, but by no means a huge stand-out having roughly 1,500 men per battalion (circled). Also shown ar the battalions that had twice their number. Note also there are over a doen battalions with over 2,000 recruits.  

 

One also needs to recognise that the regular our-battalion Regiments were each raising two (or more) K1 battalions, thereby doubling the opportunity for a potential recruit. Note the 9th Bn KRRC and 9th Bn RB data. 

 

MG

Edited 3 November , 2016 by Guest

[johnboy]

43 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

My understanding is enlisters had a choice of regiment right until the end of the Derby Scheme in Dec 1916.

Is this incorrect?

 

One of the key selling points of the Derby Scheme was precisely that this was a man's last chance to choose his destination before the MSA came into force.

 

 

 

Not incorrect. I gave no dates but used ' as time went on'.  

If KRRC were recruiting in say, a suburb of Manchester, and the man did not want to be KRRC did he then wait to enlist at a barracks of his chosen regiment?

[MBrockway]

1 minute ago, johnboy said:

 

 

Not incorrect. I gave no dates but used ' as time went on'.  

If KRRC were recruiting in say, a suburb of Manchester, and the man did not want to be KRRC did he then wait to enlist at a barracks of his chosen regiment?

 

Did recruiting staff only recruit for their own regiment then? 

 

I imagined a Recruiting Office opened its doors, men queued, men enlisted into the regiment they preferred.  If no preference, then perhaps the recruiting office staff would make suggestions, or default to the local County line regiment.

 

If a man wished to enlist in his local units, he presumably had the option of going direct to their depot or RHQ.

 

I don't know if he had the option of reporting to a depot/RHQ and enlisting in a different unit.

 

However I have no facts to confirm any of this.

[Guest]

Mark-  Back yet again- "Depot sweepings" is just a term I have seen used- those knocked out by wounds or illness, got back to fitness at some base depot in UK the part of penny parcel drafts when ready- as required by any battalion of that regiment.

    Your advertisement as to elite recruiting rings true-but then again not!!  One or 2 casualties of 1914 enlistment did enlist in "outside" regiments, for want of a better term. But I think they were few and far between- Most of casualties for Wanstead and Woodford with middle class backgrounds headed straight for HAC or LRB, the "City" elite battalions, while the Scots made for London Scottish, rather than Scottish regiments- those who went to Highland regiments were native Londoners- those who were Scots in London seem not to have gone for "home" enlistment.

 

There are 134 men listed on the CWGC data with some connection to Wanstead. They served in 51 different regiments (counting different Battalions of the London Regiment as separate 'regiments'). Of the 134, some 38 served in the London Regt (28%) of which LRB was the largest contingent with 10 (7.5%). Just as many men served in the Essex Regt (10), Royal Fusiliers (10) and the RFA (11). While there is a natural bias towards London TF, nearly two thirds of Wanstead men served outside of 'London' designated units. KRRC 6 (4.5%) and Rifle Brigade 1 (0.7%) are not particularly strongly represented in the Wanstead data.

[johnboy]

My thoughts are that if KRRC were recruiting in Lancashire that they would send their own recruiting staff to man the desk? They could then answer any questions about the regiment. This brings us back to 'when were men given their service number> Was it at time of attestation or arrival at regimental depot.?

[MBrockway]

1 minute ago, johnboy said:

This brings us back to 'when were men given their service number> Was it at time of attestation or arrival at regimental depot.?

Our hypothesis is the rifles Service Numbers were issued when men reported to the Rifles Depot, but there are inconsistencies with the Derby Scheme men from Nov/Dec 1916.  We are some way from proving the details of the process.

[Guest]

Between Aug 1914 and Jan 1915 Infantry Regiments were largely restricted to recruiting within their own designated counties. There were around 20 metropolitan areas that were open to all Regiments. These are listed in the General Annual Returns of the British Army. 'County' Regiments could recruit in their nearest designated metropolitan area. The exceptions of 'nationally recruited' regiments such as KRRC, RB, Guards etc have already been flagged. The initial rush in Sep 1914 created problems with overcrowding, and many Regiments closed their doors to recruits only to reopen them again when the AO to raise K2 along with increasing Reserve Battalions to 2,000 each had absorbed most of the surpluses. 

 

As already highlighted, recruiting was uneven due to the asymmetry between population density. As early as Sep 1914 recruits who thought that they had enlisted in a specific regiment suddenly found themselves being transferred against their will; mostly to undermanned Irish battalions. There was no legal provision within the terms of enlistment for Kitchener recruits that they would serve in their regiment of choice. This was a common misunderstanding then and remains so. The TF by contrast had these terms for a short period. It becomes more complicated with locally raised battalions who were given promises that they would serve with specific Battalions. As they were locally raised, financed and equipped most were not transferred to the War Office control for almost a year, by which time the recruits' position within the battalion was pretty secure and these men went off to war, as planned, with their Chums. Rather sensibly the locally raised units simply created new battalions with surpluses. Those that failed to recruit, or fell short of their targets could not ask the War Office to send recruits from elsewhere as the War Office had no legal jurisdiction until the complete unit was transferred. This is an important differential between K1, K2 and K3 and K4. 

From Jan 1916 it all changed. No-one had a choice. 

 

There were some alleged exceptions such as men who enlisted in Scottish battalions could not be transferred against their will to non-Scottish regiments in order to try and preserve some national identity. Similar rules did not apply to the English whose men were transferred to sustain non-English units as attrition overwhelmed recruiting districts with insufficient population. The asymmetry in population and recruiting districts (largely based in 1881 expectations of colonial commitments and no continental wars) were simply unsustainable. 

 

As an aside, pre-war regimental recruiting had priority lists for the metropolitan areas. Some regiments were not always open to recruiting. While in theory a potential recruit had a choice, it was only a choice of those regiments whose doors were open at the time. Recruiting patterns across the infantry differed considerably, so the authorities had to implement a certain level of control. MG

Edited 3 November , 2016 by Guest

[MBrockway]

 Back again- I think the most awkward KRRC casualty I have is likely to be Charles Abercrombie McGavin, merchant navy officer, enlisted 7 KRRC 1914, Sergeant. Commissioned 1915, Hants R but died attached to 5 KRRC. Died of illness (looks like some form of cancer-liver,stomach pancreas). A late entrant as grave at Hove has not long been listed as a war grave

Re Charles Abercrombie McGAVIN ...

 

Thanks for this - I had his MIC down as G.A McGavin - a National Archive misfile.  Much appreciated.

 

7/KRRC War Diary 06 Nov 1915 records his commissioning from being Signalling Sergeant.  LG (here) has same date, but doesn't mention a posting to the Hampshire Regiment.  Could not find any other LG entry for him.

 

BW&VM roll shows he entered theatre already as a Sergeant, so promoted in the UK.

 

Received wisdom on the Rifles numbering schema used to state his A/626 service number would typically indicate a returning or re-enlisting Reservist whose number had been re-allocated, but that seems to sit rather oddly with a long-standing professional seaman!  However our recent research, particularly excellent work from Kevin Rowlinson, instead suggests that the low A/ numbers were actually given to the early K1 recruits who went into the 14th (Light) Division battalions - i.e. 7th, 8th, 9th KRRC.  Since McGavin was in 7/KRRC, that is consistent with our facts here.

LG records his transfer from KRRC to an unidentified Hampshire Regt Home Service Battalion effective 03 Feb 1917.

 

CWGC has him as 18/Hants, which was indeed a Home Service battalion based in Colchester from Mar 1917.  It was disbanded in Dec 1917, but McGavin died on 24 Nov 1917.

 

I could find no mention in the LG of him being formally attached back to 5/KRRC. 

 

5/KRRC was one of the KRRC Special Reserve battalions at Sheerness with HQ at Fort Grain - an area you know well!  It was certainly used for men returning from wounds/sickness to work themselves back up to front line fighting fitness. 

 

I see his officer service record has survived.  Do you have a copy?  I'd love to see it!  Does this or his MIC mention his service with the Hampshire Regiment?  Or what he was doing between commissioning on 06 Nov 1915 and transfer on 03 Feb 1917?  I can find no Hants officer MIC for him. 

 

Since he is still on the KRRC BW&VM roll, it looks like he never went overseas while with the Hants Regt.  I could not find an entry for him on the KRRC's Officers' BW&VM roll, but that is in an unhelpful sequence, and I have yet to index it (back-burner project!).  Does his MIC give an Officers' Roll reference?

 

I wonder if his illness overtook him before he could properly complete his transfer to the Hants?  That might account for his being attached back to the KRRC Special Reserve battalion.

 

Interment at Hove is some way from Sheerness, or Colchester, or Wanstead , but ... it's only 15 miles from Seaford, where 14th & 15th KRRC were based - two of the other Reserve battalions.  Perhaps he was on the strength of 5/KRRC but was actually working with 14/ or 15/KRRC at Seaford.

 

Let me know what else you have on him and perhaps we can complete the jigsaw!

 

Mark

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

 There is also  Percy Randolph Smith,aka Paul Rudolf Smith, listed originally as 13th Rifle Brigade at Winchester, a former pupil of Bancrofts School (see website), who was kicked out for being underage-later killed with the London Rifle Brigade- He and Rivolta flag up a little interest, made by me in a previous thread about underage soldiers being culled out late in 1914 in KRRC/RB units around Winchester

     

Before I start on these two, your other thread has Smith as KRRC not RB?

[Guest]

Mark- PR Smith- My mistake-went from RB to LRB but Bancrofts website states he was booted out from Winchester.

 

        Glad that CA McGavin rings a bell-  I have very little on him-and,frankly, don't expect a lot more. I have my notes from his officers file which I will send over-but there aint much of it- There are some odd bits on Ancestry,etc for his Merchant Navy record-A very odd  enlistment- Obviously had authority-his promotion to Sergeant was rapid (possibly signals was his peacetime forte)- I suspect his posting to 5 KRRC was that he was fit for Home Service only- a succession of medical boards suggests strongly that cancer got him (Just possibly alcohol). I will dig it out. Its quite possible that 5 KRRC is a misprint in the record for 15???

 

     Be in touch.

   If you could isolate a battalion for 8140 Rivolta,it would be much appreciated-  MG is quite right- Rivolta was 5'3" -thus, under height in 1914 but OK when he volunteered for the Hants R in mid-1915-he was a ship's steward,so likely enlisted at Southampton.

[Guest]

Many thanks for the analysis- which I was waiting to do when everything was written up and done and dusted!!  To give a different analysis-

 

       Known casualties for Wanstead are 363- some of the CWGC were excluded as it was parents moving into the area after the sons death and thus only in Wanstead in time to pay for the incscription on WGC headstones when the cemeteries were finished through the Twenties and Thirties.  Known casualties on CWGC (before exclusions) are 156-as Snaresbook,a effectively the same place,throws up a few more. My casualties include those in the other services, Merchant Navy, 5 Australians/Canadians (as well as 2 who came over from South Africa after the Boer Rebellion and Botha's campaign in German South West-another served with the Northern Rhodesia Police)

    I have 107 regiments listed,including the colonial ones (and RMLI).

       Of Home regiments, Essex regiment has 21,  London  Regiment 68, Royal Fusiliers 26. LRB has 17 and HAC a low 8-BUT-a big but-more than that started in the ranks of the HAC but were commissioned up into other regiments that were usually non-London (or RFC). L Scottish has 14. Wanstead has a high proportion commissioned-only 2 regular commissions at the start of the war ( I have one other, Thomas Samuel Gayes, Captain,1st Border Regiment,KIA 1918, who took a permanent commission in 1917-unusual in that he was a pre-war Regular who had stepped down from LCPL just before the war). Roughly a quarter of Wanstead's casualties were officers,which is, I think,quite a high proportion- Others from 1914 would almost certainly have been commissioned up had they lived (eg Some of the LScottish,LRB and HAC men of 1914-see the comments about this by G.Goold Walker in his history of the HAC,with regard to losses at Hooge)

    Of the artillery proper, RFA 34,RGA 9 and one RHA- my feeling is ,again,that they were selected for their physical strength and hardiness.

 

         KRRC 9/RB 9- I have not touched these in detail as yet- Yours and Mark Brockway's information on this Forum are invaluable in getting into the background of these men's services. My overall impression is that the Army went to some considerable lengths in 1914 to get affiliations and thus the support of the manpower. The transfers and odd placements of the latter part of the war are a testament to its brutalism and losses-  One casualty, Herbert James Bentley, 2RDF, killed 1918 never went anywhere near Ireland- trained up with  6LR (City of London Rifles|) and transferred almost immediately to RDF-almost certainly on arrival in France-he was one of those that I had in mind when I started this thread. He was wounded twice with RDF before his death-He is in Ireland's Roll but it is because of a decision by staff officer,probably at an IBD, rather than any family Hibernian connection.

    I support your analysis  comments wholeheartedly-it helps frame what I am looking for as I get to each casualty.

 

           And it brings back a warm and happy family memory-  I grew up on the Devonshire side of Plymouth-my dad's family came from the Rame Peninsula,which is the Cornish side of Plymouth Sound. MY uncle aunt and cousins would come down for a summer holiday and in 1972 Dad rented a house in Cawsand for us all-it seemed a bit of a letdown for a Summer holiday- we could see the Rame Peninsula from my bedroom window anyway!!

     But Dad and my uncle were both old soldiers of the Second World War-Dad was an airborne signaller,1st Airborne, Arnhem (I go to see the Christmas Tree from Norway in Trafalgar Square every year-Dad went to Norway at end of the war-I remember him particularly then-stand there and think that he helped to earn that tree and the Norwegian "Thank You" is especially poignant to me)). My Uncles Les was a quiet, hard-working, ever reliable  Londoner-a CSM, RA (AA)- quite unlike the Windsor Davis CSM,RA in "It Aint Half Hot Mum"- On holiday,they would relax together into the old soldiers of a wartime barrack room and be easy in each other's company-though they never served together- teaching me the intricacies of 3 and 9-card brag and "Cardinal Puff"

         Why the warm memory?- Because I can see them both in my mind's eye as I write- to suggest that the British Army did have some overall scheme of logic and organisation would have had them both laughing away like village idiots-  As they were wont to say-their British Army functioned on the BBB System- "Bulls**t Baffles Brains"  So on a dull Winter day in London, my thanks to you and Mark Brockway- Your help is valued,the warm memory of 2 "absent friends" is a bonus

     Thank you

 

             Mike

 

          

[Guest]

Roughly a quarter of Wanstead's casualties were officers,which is, I think,quite a high proportion

         

That is an interesting figure.

 

Ref KRRC, Mr Brockway is your man. I have no specialist KRRC knowledge but do have an unhealthy interest in the expansion of the Army in 1914-15 and  Kitchener recruiting. Good luck with your research. MG

[MBrockway]

        Glad that CA McGavin rings a bell-  I have very little on him-and,frankly, don't expect a lot more. I have my notes from his officers file which I will send over-but there aint much of it- There are some odd bits on Ancestry,etc for his Merchant Navy record-A very odd  enlistment- Obviously had authority-his promotion to Sergeant was rapid (possibly signals was his peacetime forte)- I suspect his posting to 5 KRRC was that he was fit for Home Service only- a succession of medical boards suggests strongly that cancer got him (Just possibly alcohol). I will dig it out. Its quite possible that 5 KRRC is a misprint in the record for 15???

  

Certainly possible that it could be a misprint, or sometimes the '1' fades more than the '5' as it takes more pressure to write the latter, so it sometimes fades less.

 

That said, it is also possible that a wartime commissioned officer could be on the Establishment of 5/KRRC, which was the Special Reserve battalion and thus one of the six permanent Regular battalions, and actually be working with another battalion elsewhere.

 

There are least two subalterns in my database of the KRRC Fallen, who died at the Front but who are listed as 5/KRRC, which never left Blighty!  They could have been killed escorting a draft up to the Front I suppose, but more likely they were actually posted to a Service battalion, but remained on the 5/KRRC SR establishment.

[MBrockway]

If you could isolate a battalion for 8140 Rivolta,it would be much appreciated-  QGE is quite right- Rivolta was 5'3" -thus, under height in 1914 but OK when he volunteered for the Hants R in mid-1915-he was a ship's steward,so likely enlisted at Southampton.

Re David Rivolta

I can't find him in my material so far, but I suspect there's an error with this 8140 service number.

 

8140 would normally be a service number allocated to a Regular - and that part of the Rifles schema has survived our revisions reasonably intact!  However 8140 is way out of sequence - it would indicate an enlistment in 1907 and he would have been serious Under Age then!  We would be expecting 11xxx range for men joining the Colours as regulars.

 

I suspect there's either a typo or a letter prefix missing.  Could it be one of A/140, R/140, R/40?  Can't be A/40 as that was already allocated to another man.

 

With a Church Lads' Brigade background, he could have tried to join 16/KRRC, but we're still struggling as that would typically imply a Service Number in the range C/1 through C/2999.  No obvious typo either as both C/40 and C/140 were other riflemen.

 

You'll have to send me his papers - I might be able to glean more from them.  PM sent.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

[stiletto_33853]

 

 I would hazard a guess-and this is just a guess- that early recruiting to both KRRC and RB would show a slew-perhaps only slight- to those from (Lets use the good old "Come Dancing" term)-"Home Counties South"

Or maybe not, Major Tod of the 8th Rifle Brigade wrote "In nearly every case the men were of good material and were drawn from every part of the country with a majority coming from Manchester, Birmingham and East London, though possibly Birmingham supplied the greatest number."

 

Andy

[kevinrowlinson]

Re: David Rivolta

 

His service records tell it all. R/8140 discharged only 3 days after enlisting. Never made it to a battalion.

 

Kevin