Irchonwelz Communal Cemetery, Belgium

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Morris said:

Were the 57th Div there though on 9th. Wikipedia says that the 57th went to Lille on 1st Nov and were still there on 11th. Or had the 55th borrowed some pioneers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/57th_(2nd_West_Lancashire)_Division

I’ve no idea, but they are definitely the pioneer battalion of 57th Div.  There was just one battalion of pioneers per division.  We need to establish who the 55th Div pioneers were.

33 minutes ago, Morris said:

Hello Christian.
Glad you are feeling better.
I am interested in the photo. My father's letter say that he crossed the Scheldt on 9th November. and the officer on the right on the coat looks just like him, it looks like his ear, his nose, his haircut and even the way he is standing with his stick!
I have attched a photo of him earlier in 1918 when he was still in England where he is wearing his big coat and has his stick.
 

....and Christian, thank you very much for the card and the poppy seeds. They will be planted when the time is right.
Regards
John Morris

 

Although we can only see him in silhouette I think he does look a great deal like your father and could very well be him.

Afternote:  1/4th Battalion Prince of Wales’s Own Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment) Territorial Force, were the divisional pioneers of 55th (West Lancashire) Div.  The cap badge in the photo is definitely the Loyal North Lancashires.

 

Edited 8 February by FROGSMILE

[Morris]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve no idea, but they are definitely the pioneer battalion of 57th Div.  There was just one battalion of pioneers per division.  We need to establish who the 55th Div pioneers were.

Although we can only see him in silhouette I think he does look a great deal like your father and could very well be him.

Afternote:  1/4th Battalion Prince of Wales’s Own Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment) Territorial Force, were the divisional pioneers of 55th (West Lancashire) Div.  The cap badge in the photo is definitely the Loyal North Lancashires.

 

Long Long Trail seems to indicate that the 2/5th transferred to the 55th in 1916 at the same time as the 1/4 Batt.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/loyal-north-lancashire-regiment/ 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Morris said:

Long Long Trail seems to indicate that the 2/5th transferred to the 55th in 1916 at the same time as the 1/4 Batt.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/loyal-north-lancashire-regiment/ 

Not sure if there’s an error there, Brig James’s seminal work**, that as I understand it informs the LLT ORBATS, shows 2/5 Loyal North Lancashire joining 57th Div as pioneer battalion on 5th February 1918.

**British Regiments 1914-1918.

NB.  LLT also shows 1/4th South Lancs joining 55th Div as pioneer battalion in 1916 and remaining with them in that capacity until the end of the war.

Edited 8 February by FROGSMILE

[Morris]

If men of the 2/5 were crossing the Scheldt on 9th Novemenbr then they clearly were not with the rest of the 57th in Lille! 
I have found the photo at the IWM site, they describe it as the 1/4. 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205245385

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Morris said:

If men of the 2/5 were crossing the Scheldt on 9th Novemenbr then they clearly were not with the rest of the 57th in Lille! 
I have found the photo at the IWM site, they describe it as the 1/4. 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205245385

We know they’re pioneers, and we know they’re with one of the two West Lancashire Divisions.  Those are the givens.  My ID is based purely on the visible cap badges.  The South Lancs badge (1/4th) was one of the larger infantry badges.  The North Lancs (2/5th) was a much more slender and spindly affair.  I’m entirely content for others to have a good look and see which badge they think it is.  I’m really just stating what the cap badges look like to me.  In particular, I can see the wings formed by the 2/5th badge’s title scroll.

P.S.  In fairness the photo provided by christiandup has much better resolution than that of the IWM version available online.  It won’t be the first time that the IWM have got a caption wrong. 

Edited 8 February by FROGSMILE

[christiandup]

Thanks also to:

- Méline and Cyril, my grandchildren,

- The neighbours of my home,

- Several former colleagues of my school "Georges Roland", but also at the school of Irchonwelz,

- Sébastien Morancé, Laurent Dubuisson, Caroline Malice and Cédric Minet of sincere municipal collaborators,

- And GEORGES the manager of the chapel "Notre-Dame-au-Chêne" in Irchonwelz.

[Morris]

A friend of my son has helped locate the place where the pontoon bridge was built.
It is just to the north of the current bridge on the Boul. Delwart in Tournai.
I have found the spot on Google maps/streetview and done a screen shot. I have added a red arrow to mark the old building in the back ground of the photo, and a green line to mark the approx position of the pontoon bridge.

What I have therefore spotted is that the men on the bridge are actually walking from East to West, so not advancing but going back to where they had come from. But if they are pioneers they could obviously be returning from having fixed something on the east side to then be deployed elsewhere.
 

Edited 9 February by Morris
typo

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Morris said:

A friend of my son has helped locate the place where the pontoon bridge was built.
It is just to the north of the current bridge on the Boul. Delwart in Tournai.
I have found the spot on Google maps/streetview and done a screen shot. I have added a red arrow to mark the old building in the back ground of the photo, and a green like to mark the approx position of the pontoon bridge.

What I have therefore spotted is that the men on the bridge are actually walking from East to West, so not advancing but going back to where they had come from. But if they are pioneers they could obviously be returning from having fixed something on the east side to then be deployed elsewhere.
 

Their collar badges distinguish them quite clearly as pioneers, it’s interesting what you say regarding the direction that they are moving and their purpose.  

[Morris]

Given the number of bridges, roads etc that needed to be repaired at that stage of the advance I can imagine that the pioneer battalion from another division could have been temporarily attached to the 55th Div. (Especially if the 57th was "resting") .

[Morris]

I have found another IWM image of a "bridge" over the Scheldt being used on 9th Nov 1918.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205245390

 

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, Morris said:

Given the number of bridges, roads etc that needed to be repaired at that stage of the advance I can imagine that the pioneer battalion from another division could have been temporarily attached to the 55th Div. (Especially if the 57th was "resting") .

Entirely possible.

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 08/02/2024 at 15:37, christiandup said:

On November 9, 1918, these soldiers crossed the Scheldt north of Tournai.

That's an interesting photo posted by Christiandup on 8 February, and interesting that, more than 100 years later, and despite all the changes in the area, it is still possible to work out which direction the men were moving in when they crossed the bridge.

With a great deal of assistance I am progressing with my quest to identify which of 30 officers of the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers who featured in a group photograph taken in Bedford on 1 May 1915, just before the 2/5th LF proceeded to France on 3 May 1915, was 2nd Lieutenant Hugh Waterstone. I am hoping that the answer will eventually be found on this thread. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-–-“c”-coy-ramsden-h-waterhouse-simon-harker/

In the meantime, I recently came across this in the Spring 1939 edition of The Balshavian, the journal of Balshaw's Grammar School:

17th Annual Old Boy's Dinner

The Dinner was held on Thursday, December 15th, 1938, in the School Dining Hall, when we were privileged to have as our Guest Mr Hugh Waterhouse M.C, M.A., the Headmaster of Chorley Grammar School. 

I think that this is very likely indeed to be the Hugh Waterhouse who was an officer with the 2/5th LF, given the name, the fact that he had an MC, the fact that Hugh Waterstone was a well-educated man (a barrister in civilian life immediately after the war), had connections with Lancashire, and would have been the right age to potentially be acting as headmaster of a school in 1938. T

It is likely that the Hugh Waterhouse in question was himself an Old Boy of Balshaw's Grammar School (why else would he be guest of honour at an Old Boys' Dinner?) as well as then being the headmaster of Chorley Grammar School. Both schools are still in existence, so I should write to them to see whether they have any photographs of Hugh Waterstone that might help..

 

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

As an update to my last post, I have now learned that Hugh Waterhouse was in fact an Old Boy of Manchester Grammar School, and @brianmorris547 has been able to find a photograph of him taken in 1933, as well as other details of his biography, as can be seen on this link Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill & Abbotts - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)