Cuthbert Arthur Quin - MC removed as result of Court Martial

[Munny]

On 08/07/2016 at 10:04, Bartimeus said:

Lieutenant Quin's MC and DCM were sold by the late Fred Walland (an Essex-based medal dealer) in August 1985

Hi Bart, do you know if there is a way to track the sold medals. Cuthbert Quin was my Great Grandfather and as far as we were concerned his medals were lost. He gave his 2 sons the initials of the medals. My great Uncle was Michael Charles Quin and my Grandfather was Donolad Cuthbert Montague Quin. 

I would love to be able to find the medals for my Mum. 

 

Regards 

Munny

[DavidOwen]

Hi Munny and welcome to the forum.

You may want to post in the Family Seeking Medals section of the British Medal Forum (link here https://britishmedalforum.com/index.php ) as you may be lucky there.

Good luck!

David

[Munny]

25 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

Hi Munny and welcome to the forum.

You may want to post in the Family Seeking Medals section of the British Medal Forum (link here https://britishmedalforum.com/index.php ) as you may be lucky there.

Good luck!

David

Hi David. 

Thank you very much. I have just registered on there

Regards 

Munny

[Dever Mayfly]

On 06/07/2016 at 11:22, corisande said:

Thanks you both

 

I have suggested to the family that they get his file.

 

I am hoping that someone on the forum has more to add on Court Martials for refusing to serve in Russia. I note that there were 2 Battalions of Royal Fusiliers in North Russia. Were they made up of volunteers or were they "normal" postings ?

 

I learn something new every day here, I never realised it was possible to access MC Register - is it online?

There is also the case of Lt Col Sherwood Kelly VC, CMG, DSO who was sent home from North Russia by General Ironside when commanding 2nd Hampshires for writing a letter home that criticised his superiors.  After his letter was published in the Daily Express, he was eventually court martialled on 28th October 1919 in Westminster Guild Hall.  He pleaded guilty to the technical offence of communicating with the Press without special authority, but in giving evidence in mitigation he presented evidence to show that those who had volunteered for service in Russia had been misled about the purpose of their deployment. He was severely reprimanded and relinquished his commission, but was allowed to keep his rank and medals.  He died from malaria in Africa in 1931 and was granted a full military funeral.

[Munny]

On 07/07/2016 at 08:02, corisande said:

Thank you all for the recent posts, I am on a different time zone (some may say a different planet) so there is a lot of new stuff this morning for me

 

AD Leslie's CV is fascinating - thanks IPT - and I have to agree that Leslie's "crime" and Quin's "crime" are almost certainly different

 

We will probably only solve this now if the family get his Officer File as above, or if a passing Royal Fusilier/North Russia expert spots this thread at some point and has inside knowledge.

 

I will digress myself at this point to explain why I became involved in Cuthbert Quin of the Royal Fusiliers and his Court Martial.  I was contacted by CA Quin's grandson because I had a write up of another Quin - Lt Cuthbert CS Quin of Royal Fusilers who was court  martialed. CCS Quin was in ADRIC

http://theauxiliaries.com/men-alphabetical/men-p-q/quin-ccs/ccs-quin.html

Court Martialed for robbing a bank while in ADRIC

 

There was only 1 Lt Cuthbert Quin MIC, and (wrongly) I assumed it was CCS Quin. Quite honestly I never thought there would be another Cuthbert Quin in Royal Fusiliers on Suspense Account. Closer examination showed that they had different commission dates

 

So if there is a moral, it is never take anything for granted in research

 

I started this thread to see if I could help the research of CA Quin's family, in thanks for them pointing out my mistake on the MIC

Evening, 

 

I was wondering if you would be able to give you the details of the person that contacted you about CA Quin? 

With him being my Great Grandad I can only think of one grandson (my uncle) that Cuthbert had. He hasn't mentioned to me that he has been looking into Cuthberts background.

 

Regards

Munny 

[wrightdw]

On 06/07/2016 at 19:52, corisande said:

Thanks you both

 

I have suggested to the family that they get his file.

 

I am hoping that someone on the forum has more to add on Court Martials for refusing to serve in Russia. I note that there were 2 Battalions of Royal Fusiliers in North Russia. Were they made up of volunteers or were they "normal" postings ?

 

I learn something new every day here, I never realised it was possible to access MC Register - is it online?

 

There were a number of Courts Martials for 'refusals' in Russia, most notably the CM of nearly 100 Royal Marines of 6th RM Bn. at Murmansk for various refusals in August and September 1919. The CM was conducted in Murmansk in October 1919 and resulted in the sentencing of 13 Marines to death however their sentences were communed to Life with Penal Servitude based on secret orders from The King that no executions were to be carried out in respect of offences committed in Russia after the Armistice. See pages 103-110 of my book for account of the Courts Martial and sentences.

 

There was also the mutiny of the Slavo-British Legion at Archangel which resulted in the murder of five British officers. Most of the mutineers escaped to defect to the Red Army but 26 others were arrested and charged of whom 18 were sentenced to death. These men were Russian soldiers who had enlisted into the British Army and sworn an oath to serve The King. (pages 243-251).

 

There were also refusals for which Courts Martials were carried out in Russia amongst soldiers of Yorkshire Regiment, Royal Marine Field Force North Russia and sailors of the RN Eastern Baltic Fleet, particularly the Stokers strike on HMS Vindictive.

 

There were also serious rumblings in England, around 150 sailors of 1st Destroyer Flotilla deserted their ships when ordered to return to the Eastern Baltic. Most of the deserters were arrested however a group of 44 sailors were able to make it as far as London intending to present a petition to Parliament before they were arrested at King's Cross Station and escorted under armed guard the RN Barracks at Chatham were they were Courts Martialed.

 

Almost all of the soldiers sent to North Russia were not volunteers, only 2nd (Sadleir-Jackson's) Brigade of the North Russia Relief Force were volunteers, all the other soldiers were ordered to Russia despite assurances in Parliament that only volunteers were being sent.

[FrancesH]

Just to say that I have been researching Alan Dunbar Leslie (mentioned in this thread because his various demotions were in the same item as those of Cuthbert Quin). I have now had the chance to look at his file. Leslie joined the Artists' Rifles and fought with them in 1915, when he was wounded. Subsequently he applied for and was given a commission in the Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, and served with the 8th battalion. In April 1917 he was awarded the MC for outstanding gallantry during the assault on Monchy. On 21 March 1918 (morning of the German spring offensive of course) a gas shell fell directly in front of him before exploding. He was scarred for life and heavily gassed, 'unconscious three hours'. Leslie was then off sick for eleven months before being declared fit to serve. Of course when he returned the war in Europe was over and he rejoined his battalion in Dublin in February 1919. Only three weeks later he was apparently appointed as mess secretary -- in any case he was given two cheques, one to pay a fellow officer's bar bill, and one representing the takings from a collection taken for the Royal National Institute for the Blind. Leslie paid both into his own account. This was discovered almost immediately (not surprisingly) and despite his pleas that he had not intended anything wrong, army criminal justice systems took their course. I do wonder whether he had been mentally affected by his experiences: as the medical board examining him in 1918 noted, he was 20 years old and had done three and a half years service, nearly all at the front.

I am working on a new side project provisionally entitled 'Officers in Trouble', that's why I followed him up!  Further suggestions of other subjects welcome. 

[adk46canada]

FrancesH

There is a 2018 article in Social History that discusses the issues of financial irregularities in the Canadian Expeditionary Force. The quick summary of the article is that the authorities were willing to look over moral failings more so than any financial failings. There was little tolerance for passing bad cheques.

 

Regards

Bill Stewart

 

Barrett, Matthew. “Worthless Cheques and Financial Honour: Cheque Fraud and Canadian Gentlemen Officers during the First World War.” Social History 51, no. 104 (2018): 301–28.