Cuthbert Arthur Quin - MC removed as result of Court Martial

[stiletto_33853]

9 hours ago, IPT said:

 

 

Would they have entered drunkenness on the register, if he had been?

 

Maybe entered another charge as well if drunk, a good few of these court martials relate to drunkeness

[Matlock1418]

Fantastic work by ALL above (with some lovely background and added-value other off-shoots).  Cracking images. Thanks.

As previously - "Russia" - possible red-herring = family not enlightened as to true nature of charge(s) leading to these consequences.  

Glad he got to hang onto his gallantry award medals anyway.  Brave man - definitely seems to have deserved them.  Wonder where they are now.

Today we better recognise the consequences of military action upon human-beings - maybe he just "snapped" as a result of PTSD and had a pop at a french monsieur (think things would have been even more serious if he had assaulted a more senior person or British/French officer).  Has anyone access to/found any medical history?

The case/hearing papers, if available, may shed more light.

Or maybe he didn't want to go to Russia - I'm increasingly sceptical about that.  Maybe his get out card???

But who knows? - maybe we will find out.  Here's hoping ...

[trajan]

Perhaps a naive question - but why not try? OK, so I can see how a man can loose his gallantry awards through "conduct unbecoming", etc., etc., and court martial - but would loosing these through a court martial and being dismissed from the service necessarily mean he would loose or be excluded from receiving his campaign awards? I.E., a Star, and/or BVM and BWM?

[johnboy]

Did 1RF go to Russia?

[corisande]

9 minutes ago, trajan said:

but would loosing these through a court martial and being dismissed from the service necessarily mean he would loose or be excluded from receiving his campaign awards? I.E., a Star, and/or BVM and BWM

 

Unequivocally yes, he lost the lot - if he only had the campaign medals then that was what he lost, if gallantry medals then he lost those too.

 

I probably need to start a new thread sometime one MCs lost through CM (in fact they also lost them on "conviction by the civil power" and getting a gaol sentence

[Bartimeus]

9 minutes ago, trajan said:

Perhaps a naive question - but why not try? OK, so I can see how a man can loose his gallantry awards through "conduct unbecoming", etc., etc., and court martial - but would loosing these through a court martial and being dismissed from the service necessarily mean he would loose or be excluded from receiving his campaign awards? I.E., a Star, and/or BVM and BWM?

 

As an officer his campaign awards would not have been issued automatically - he would have had to apply for them. There is no Medal Index card for him, so I assume he did not, which is probably understandable given the circumstances surrounding the end of his military career.

 

Had he applied, I don't think it's impossible that they would have been granted, particularly if he had done so post-1936. Attitudes to forfeitures seem to have eased somewhat in the reigns of King George VI and our present Queen, compared to those in the reign of King George V.

 

Bart

[corisande]

Did 1RF go to Russia?  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Russia_Intervention has a write up

 

The forces included:

• A British Royal Navy Flotilla of over 20 ships – including two seaplane carriers; HMS Pegasus and HMS Nairana
• The 45th and 46th Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers
• Approximately 8,000 United States Army soldiers^[3]
• 14 Battalions of British Commonwealth troops – Canadian Brigade and Australian Infantry,
• 2,000 French, Colonial & Engineers,
• 1,000 British-Serbian and Polish Rifles assigned to assist Admiral Kolchak’s White Guard forces in the north and make a junction with his Siberian forces (Czechoslovak Legion) near Kotlas.
• A British Royal Air Force contingent comprising Airco DH.4 bombers, Fairey Campania and Sopwith Baby seaplanes along with a single Sopwith Camel fighter.

 

[Knotty]

johnboy 

 

13 minutes ago, johnboy said:

Did 1RF go to Russia?

The following infantry battalions are known to have served in Russia:

2/10th (Cyclist) Battalion, The Royal Scots (Territorial Force) as infantry - Archangel 45th and 46th (Service) Battalions, The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) - Archangel

17th (Service) Battalion (1st City), The King's (Liverpool) Regiment - Archangel

6th (Service) Battalion Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own (Yorkshire Regiment) - Archangel

Unknown Battalion, The East Surrey Regiment - Murmansk

11th (Service) Battalion (1st South Down), The Royal Sussex Regiment - Murmansk 1/9th (Cyclist) Battalion, The Hampshire Regiment as infantry- Siberia

Unknown Battalion, The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry - Archangel

25th (Garrison) Battalion, The Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex Regiment) - Siberia [and other elements in Murmansk?]

2/7th Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry (Territorial Infantry) - Archangel

Unknown Battalion, The Highland Light Infantry - Murmansk and Archangel.

A small detachment of the Tank Corps, some 49 other ranks plus officers, served in Russia between Apr and Dec 1919. 

 

John

Sorry corisande posted almost a duplicate response

Edited 9 July , 2016 by Knotty
Apologises

[corisande]

  There is no Medal Index card for him,  

 

There is a MIC for CA Quin, it is the one i originally erroneously attributed to CCS Quin - see it here click I have left the MIC there

[johnboy]

Out of interest, if he enlisted in 1914 under short service DOW terms. would these terms apply to officers? 

[Bartimeus]

Quote

There is a MIC for CA Quin, it is the one i originally erroneously attributed to CCS Quin

 

Thanks for pointing that out - foolish assumption based on a misreading of an earlier post.

 

I think my point stands though, that having been commissioned he would have had to submit form EF9 to claim his campaign medals, or at least his British War Medal and Victory Medal. My understanding of the process is that rolls were compiled for all those who saw active service in the "rank and file" ("R & F"), including those who went on to gain commissions and see further active service that would qualify them for campaign awards. Hence many officers commissioned from the ranks appearing on different rolls for the same medals, as both officers and other ranks, and annotations such as "on R & F roll xxx" or "no R & F service overseas". From what I've seen of the rolls, a man who only saw qualifying overseas service as an officer, and who did not make an application for campaign medals, will not feature in the rolls at all.

 

The 1914 Star may have been dealt with slightly differently, in that it was instituted at the King's request some time before the end of the war, and rolls of qualifying individuals were prepared, rather than applications invited. I don't have Howard Williamson's book to hand to check the dates involved, but from memory institution was in 1917, the ribbon was being worn by early 1918, and the medals themselves were sent out in 1919. So Quin has an MIC by virtue of being included on a 1914 Star roll and I'm quite sure he wore the ribbon prior to (and at) his court martial; it's interesting to see that before the Star itself was actually issued his name had been placed on a 'suspense list'. I think it should also be noted that nowhere on the MIC, nor on the three appearances he makes on the medal rolls (1914 Star, BWM & VM as "R & F", BWM & VM Royal Fusiliers officers 'suspense list') is any mention made of actual forfeiture (whereas there is specific mention of forfeiture for an officer a couple of names down from Cuthbert Quin on the third list). Was this because every case would be examined individually, a process that would only be triggered once an application was made? If so, I guess the annotation is there to ensure that issue was not made until any claim had been adjudicated by higher authority - I don't think we can assume that such a claim would necessarily have been unsuccessful.

 

It's also interesting to see that what appears to be a date (4/3/53) is pencilled on Quin's MIC. Whenever I've seen something similar it relates to an enquiry made to records at the stated time; unfortunately there is no indication here of what that inquiry might have concerned (other than the assumption that on a medal index card it probably had something to do with medals!), but it's possible there might be something relating to it in Quin's WO 339 file, if it has not been too heavily weeded. I've researched a similar case where a man commissioned from the ranks was convicted of an offence of dishonesty a few years after demobilisation. As he had once held a commission the War Office was informed of the conviction by the court, and they instigated the process to deprive him of the rank he had been permitted to retain, which was notified in the London Gazette. He had not at this point claimed his campaign medals (1914-15 Star as an NCO, BWM & VM as 2nd Lieutenant), but did so in the 1930s, and the claim was permitted.

 

There is an 'NW' reference against Quin's name on the medal rolls, the meaning of which I don't know, except that I'm pretty certain is doesn't indicate that medals were issued. If that were the case, there should be an 'IV' (issue voucher) reference.

 

Finally, for comparison, a couple of other examples of officers who received decorations and later got into trouble:

 

1. Major S.H. Chapin, 4th Dragoon Guards. Deprived of his DSO (awarded 1900) after dismissal by court martial in 1918 (apparently for bigamy). He has an MIC, created when he was entered on the 1914 Star roll (just as in Quin's case) but with no further contemporary details of medal issue, nor any mention of forfeiture. A later annotation shows that his three campaign medals were issued in March 1950 (and are known to be extant).

 

2. Major J.A. Baillie, Royal Artillery. Deprived of his DSO (awarded 1902) on 'conviction by the Civil Power' in 1920. His MIC shows that he applied for his 1914-15 Star in 1919, and submitted form EF9 for his other medals in 1921. The medals were all issued; there is no mention of forfeiture, suspense list or anything similar on MIC or rolls. Baillie's DSO was restored to him in 1931 on a change of rules, the terms of which may also have been applicable to Cuthbert Quin:

 

I'm still inclined to think that he chucked his medals ina drawer and put it all behind him, but it would interesting to know what that 1953 enquiry was about...

 

Bart

[corisande]

Bart, thanks for those examples

 

One starts to get into the arcane detail here, but I see that Baillie's DSO was restored to Mr John Andrew Baillie, not by rank

 

I assume the rank had been removed when the DSO was removed "The King has no further need..." and that although the DSO was restored he could not use his former rank?

[Bartimeus]

In Baillie's case, his standing as an officer went first, followed shortly afterwards by the withdrawal of his decoration.

 

"Major J.A. Baillie, D.S.O., is removed from the Territorial Force, the King having no further occasion for his services as an officer. 20th May 1920" appears in the London Gazette of 19th May 1920. That effective date was corrected to read 7th February 1920 a little later (London Gazette 29th June 1920). 

 

Regarding the DSO, the notice appears in the London Gazette of 28th May 1920:

 

"His Majesty the KING has directed, that the Distinguished Service Order which was awarded to Major John Andrew Baillie, Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery (Territorial Force), and was gazetted on the 31st October, 1902, shall be cancelled, and that his name shall be erased from the Register of the Order, in consequence of his having been removed from the Territorial Force on conviction by the Civil Power."

 

Bart

[Matlock1418]

55 minutes ago, Bartimeus said:

Howard Williamson's book

Having spotted this book [presumably Great War Medal Collectors Companion] in an ever expanding thread [and having seen an earlier thread from years ago which sings its praises] there is no doubt where I shall be looking next for general information. - Thanks.

[Matlock1418]

I don't "do" Facebook - but found this by Googling.  If others can follow up - Is this your man? Any use for his career - though ???? about his medals.  

Quote from Sandgate District History https://zh-hk.facebook.com/SandgateDistrictHistory/?fref=nf   

"Chrs Quin My Grandfather Lt. Cuthbert Quin, 1st Battalion RF met John Ramkema at Etaples in 1916 when recuperating after the Battle of the Somme.  John was wounded and spent time in Kings College Hospital Denmark Hill London where he was visited by Lt. Quin's wife & children who lived nearby. Source: Memoire of Cuthbert Arthur Quin" [do not know if private or published - can anyone locate?] 

[For info - This was a follow-up to the previous Facebook post which refers to John Patrick (Jack) Ramkema - paraphrased as: born Townsville and resident Shorncliffe in Queensland ... in Queensland 9th Battalion at Gallipoli and then went to Western Front ...]

[corisande]

It won't help, it is the same Chris Quin who contacted me originally over the 2 Cuthbert Quins

[Bartimeus]

I wonder if it would be possible for the grandson to claim Cuthbert Quin's campaign medals? Isn't it the case that the MOD have allowed issues recently where it was shown no contemporary issue had been made?

 

Bart

[corisande]

But you said in an earlier post that they had been sold in 1985 - do you mean the "normal" medals? What medals were sold in 1985?

[Bartimeus]

Yes - the three campaign medals (1914 Star, British War Medal, Victory Medal).

 

The medals sold in 1985 were his Military Cross (unnamed, as issued) and Distinguished Conduct Medal (officially named).

 

Bart

[johnboy]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

It won't help, it is the same Chris Quin who contacted me originally over the 2 Cuthbert Quins

 

Cuthbert Arthur lived in Camberwell, I think, Not a million miles from Denmark Hill.

Where was the other Cuthbert living?

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Bartimeus said:

 

I wonder if it would be possible for the grandson to claim Cuthbert Quin's campaign medals? Isn't it the case that the MOD have allowed issues recently where it was shown no contemporary issue had been made?

 

 

Might be possible for Star, BWM & VM as they don't appear to have been issued - think MOD insist on application being made by the eldest / closest living descendant.

 

I think I mean just BWM and VM

Edited 9 July , 2016 by Matlock1418
correction

[wrightdw]

I am aware I am coming to this thread rather late however I can add the following.

 

45th and 46th Royal Fusiliers (formed April 1919) were entirely volunteer, including officers (who served on attachment).

 

No other Royal Fusiliers unit served in Russia 1918-20.

 

However the tale of this officer is reminiscent of that of Cpl. Adam Thompson STEWART, 45th Royal Fusiliers, previously 2nd Lieutenant, MC and Bar who had his awards revoked in a similar process however had his awards restored in respect of his bravery in the field in North Russia.

 

I wonder if this is a unique case of an officer having his awards revoked but later having them reinstated in respect of bravery?

 

I am sure STEWART would not have been enlisted were not the North Russia Relief Force formed in such haste. Volunteers had to be fully trained in the Arm for which they were volunteering as there was no time for training and the date from enlistment in the Force to boarding the troopship for Archangel was in almost all cases less than a month, in some cases only 2 weeks.

 

I suspect STEWART enlisted as an other rank (approximately 40 officers reverted to the ranks to join 45th and 46th Royal Fusiliers) without disclosing all the details of his past and there being not enough time for sufficient checks to be carried out he was likely either already in North Russia or back in the UK after October 1919 before his past came out.

 

I also suspect that what brought his past out was that he was recommended for a bravery award in North Russia (either DCM or MM) and when it went through official channels his revoked MC and Bar was discovered.

 

This may also be a unique circumstance of an officer with revoked awards being recommended for a subsequent bravery award (even more unusual that it was an OR's level award).

 

Incidentally there were two officers who held the MC who relinquished commissions to serve as other ranks for North Russia and received a further award for North Russia, in one case an MC, MM and another an MC, DCM, MM.

 

There was another officer who had his awards revoked after service in Russia, Major Ewen Cameron Bruce, MC, Tank Corps was awarded a DSO for service with the Tank Corps in the Crimea 1919 but had both awards revoked in 1921 after conviction for theft from a private business in Ireland whilst serving with the Auxiliary Division of the RIC.

 

Accounts of the services in Russia of both officers are recorded in my book, Churchill's Secret War with Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918-20 (Helion, 2017).

 

I have attached a snippet from my book about Corporal/Lieutenant STEWART for members interest and also from London Gazette, 2 March 1920.

 

 

 

 

[corisande]

Thank you for your input on North Russia - a subject that I am deeply ignorant of

 

Since I started the thread, let me digress onto medals lost/regained that you ask about. I was recently researching Capt  John Henry Lee D.S.O who was sentenced to 15 months for fraud. Click for my fuller notes on Capt John Henry Lee DSO

 

His Officer file shows a fascinating debate in the War Office as to whether to remove his DSO or not. More pages are on my link above, but the gist of it was

 

 

It seemed to come down to "the luck of the draw" as to whether medals were removed on "conviction by the civil power"

 

[trajan]

GBP 4800 was a fair whack of money! 

[Munny]

Cuthbert Arthur Quin was my great grandfather