Cuthbert Arthur Quin - MC removed as result of Court Martial

[corisande]

From London Gazette 29 Nov 1919.

 

His Majesty the KING has directed that
the award of the Military Cross to Lieutenant
Cuthbert Arthur Quin, 1st Battalion, The
Royal Fusiliers, which was gazetted on the
16th August, 1917, shall be cancelled and his
name erased from the Register in consequence
of his having been dismissed the service by
sentence of a General Court Martial.

 

Can anyone add any more to this. I have been in correspondence with the family and they believe it is to do with him refusing to go to North Russia

 

His MIC shows "Suspense List", which of course it would if his medals were withheld.. He had both MC and DCM

 

I thought that North Russia was voluntary, but I recall some RNLI were court martialed for refusing to serve there (probably best to exclude discussion on RMLI from this thread, as he was not involved in that )

 

 

 

[John_Hartley]

His service file is at Kew under WO339/47698. A good chance that it holds details of the court martial, etc

[clk]

Hi corisande,

 

I can't help much, but here is the MC Register entry.

 

 

Regards

Chris

[corisande]

Thanks you both

 

I have suggested to the family that they get his file.

 

I am hoping that someone on the forum has more to add on Court Martials for refusing to serve in Russia. I note that there were 2 Battalions of Royal Fusiliers in North Russia. Were they made up of volunteers or were they "normal" postings ?

 

I learn something new every day here, I never realised it was possible to access MC Register - is it online?

[Matlock1418]

I most certainly don't want to be disrespectful ... A potential cover-up and/or red-herring???

Is there any chance the original MC Gazetting(s) was a mistake? - Once posted did he perhaps play upon it, elaborating along the way, and then on non award have to find a way of explanation to family for lack of MC e.g. "Not wanting to go to Russia" ?

Or perhaps he was entitled to an MC in the first place but after Court Martial / dismissal [reason not yet known to me - had he been "bigging himself up" and/or other offence] - Perhaps explaining to family by way of Russia?? [Helpfully for him both latter two events in 1919]

Could the "Russia" explanation be a cover-up and/or red-herring?  Just a thought ...

Did he actually get his war service medals and DCM? - or were they withheld too?  

Good luck with your endeavours - will be interested if you find out more

[clk]

Hi,

 

6 hours ago, corisande said:

I never realised it was possible to access MC Register - is it online?

 

The MC records can be downloaded from the National Archives. WO 389/1 to WO 389/8 are the registers. WO 389/9 onwards are the index cards. His index card shows that he was "decorated" on 23.1.18.

 

This is his DCM Register entry from WO 391/3.

 

 

 

Regards

Chris

 

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Did he actually get his war service medals and DCM? - or were they withheld too?  

 

He lost his DCM as well - see the same LG page where one entry appears above the other

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31665/supplement/14787/data.pdf

[John_Hartley]

I hesitate to speculate on such matters - not least as the file is likely to provide actual evidence. However, the loss of the DCM perhaps suggests something more significant than what might otherwise be thought of as conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman.

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Did he actually get his war service medals and DCM? - or were they withheld too?  

 

10 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

He lost his DCM as well - see the same LG page where one entry appears above the other

 

Michael - good spot.

And also lost his service medals ???

 

John - just also noted your last response - potentially interesting methinks!

[corisande]

clk

 

Thank you for the references to the downloads for the MC and DCM files from TNA. I never knew one could get them, must download them now

[Matlock1418]

For my/our enlightenment please.

Know awards such as V.C. could once be removed - but now [from ??? date] now cannot, despite whatever, however serious.

Did / does same apply still to other gallantry awards? - apparently so in 1919 for Mc & DCM, and others?? - and what sort of grounds?

And service medals?

 

And

24 minutes ago, John_Hartley said:

more significant than what might otherwise be thought of as conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman

 

What is "conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman"? - is this a recognised description/charge?  How defined unbecoming? - examples?

 

What other charges might there be?  Presumably short of Treason.

 

Is there any reasonably accessible [reasonably priced?] guidance info on this rather interesting general subject (past or present)? - heaven forbid it is in the depths of some KR/QR! ;-)

[corisande]

Matlock

 

I am reluctant for the thread about Lt Quin to be diverted with a general discussion on the details of medals being lost.

 

Can I suggest you look up the forum index (which may not be working yet!) for a number of thread on this subject. You could also start a new thread on whatever it is that you want to know.

 

This way threads are easier to follow and deliver what the OP was looking for in the first place

[johnboy]

I agree. The question is about the loss of one mans medals. The Courts Martial details if available, should give the answer.

Maybe a search of newspapers around the time might shed some light?  

[johnboy]

There are some newspaper reports but no reason other than CM given. Was dismissed the service.

[Matlock1418]

corisande [and all] - ok, fair comment - sorry not intending to hijack your thread - good luck with Lt Quin - hope you can share your findings when/if you find them.

[RaySearching]

On 06/07/2016 at 11:15, clk said:

Hi corisande,

 

I can't help much, but here is the MC Register entry.

 

 

Regards

Chris

 

It has not been made quite clear but the above citation is for his DCM award 

although it is shown as DCM in post 6

 

Regards Ray

 

Whilst the following cuttings add no new info I thought I would add them to add to the record

 

 

Yorkshire Post 1st Dec 1919

 

 

Aberdeen Journal 1st Dec 1919

[IPT]

I know Corisande is very strict, but I will just say that poor Leslie was fined for pinching a bicycle in Dover in 1922, having returned penniless after three years with the mounties. He then appears on a number of prison registers in the late 1920s, before dying in prison in 1930.

[corisande]

Thanks IPT

 

Raysearching, thanks for the cuttings - they may give me something to go on as the other Lt who was courtmartialed, may have been involved in the same offence (assuming that the fence was refusing to go to Russia!). I can try to check him out tomorrow, though I doubt that I will find more then IPT

[Loader]

Whatever his offence was, it was bad enough the army had no further use for him in any capacity. Not even reduced to Pte. & sentenced to yrs of cleaning latrines. Will be interested in what can be found.

Had he no desire to serve in Russia, could he just have resigned his commission & left the army with medals intact? CM seems a lot if he had that option.
 

[John_Hartley]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

 - is this a recognised description/charge? 

I have absolutely no idea. No doubt Google will give you your answer.

[clk]

 

Hi,

 

3 hours ago, RaySearching said:

 

...It has not been made quite clear but the above citation is for his DCM award 

although it is shown as DCM in post 6...

 

Sorry, but no. I didn't mean to confuse. Just for clarification/explanation...

 

The image I posted in post #3 (preceded by "...here is the MC Register entry"), is from the MC (not DCM) register, and is annotated to show the date and place of his actions, which resulted in his MC award.

 

Post #6 contains a mixture of his medal related images. The first (in answer to the question asked of me is preceded by "The MC records can be downloaded from the National Archives. WO 389/1 to WO 389/8 are the registers. WO 389/9 onwards are the index cards. His index card shows that he was "decorated" on 23.1.18.") is his MC index card which I thought was relevant, as it shows when he physically received the medal, and in part was meant to counter Matlock1418's suggestion in post #5 that he might have been some kind of "wannabe". The second image (preceded by "This is his DCM Register entry from WO 391/3") is from the DCM register. I posted it to show how that register reflected that he was also stripped of his DCM, along with the annotated date for which the award was originally made.

 

I guess that if corisande had previously just relied on the LG citations, and not seen the annotated versions, he probably wouldn't have the specific dates for the actions, and wouldn't have been able to precisely cross reference against the war diary, to advise the family he's helping, of the wider context/circumstances of why the awards were made.

 

Regards

Chris

[Matlock1418]

31 minutes ago, clk said:

meant to counter Matlock191418's suggestion in post #5 that he might have been some kind of "wannabe"

Chris,

Liked your material, but re: above about Lt Quin.

Not wanting to shoot him down, not my intention at all - brave men can still subsequently do silly things and then get "busted", but that doesn't necessarily make them any less brave (if they did the deeds).  

And losing your gallantry medal(s) by way of collateral damage for a reason(s) other than the deed(s) does seem pretty harsh [but perhaps militarily necessarily so by way of example to others - I still think it is harsh, they don't take V.C.s away now do they.]

Maybe the chain of command up to LG mucked it up.

Maybe a citation and award got pinned on the wrong man and he bigged it up - perhaps.

Or he, rather embarassingly for him, got Court Martialled as he did - must have been pretty serious affair I would gather from other comments/suggestions above.

Just pitching in - in my opinion it never harms to occasionally play the devil's advocate - and can save time & effort.

Just trying to suggest in my simple way, and my apparently poor method, that original and subsequent oral history within a family always has to be treated with a degree of caution/scepticism - and perhaps the "Russia" bit may perhaps be long-standing but never the less a red-herring.

Who knows?  

Hope we find out the answer.

Good luck to you Corisande.

:-)

[IPT]

Below is the information on A D Leslie that i've found.  Sadly, it seems rather redundant as Leslie was dismissed the service on 8/8/1919, whereas Quin's GCM was 10/2/1919 - https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31278/supplement/4553/data.pdf

 

Still, a very sad tale of a war hero whose life appears to have gone to pieces following his dismissal.

 

Alan (sometimes Allan) Dunbar Leslie;

 

Baptised 27/8/1899  St Peter, Kent. Father Oscar, mother Florence Amy

1901 census, living at 41 Granville Rd, Broadstairs. Father, Oscar D, a secretary to a public company.

1911 census - At school at West Horsham, Sussex.

4390 Artists Rifles

LG 14/2/1917 -  R. Lane. R. Cadet Alan Dunbar Leslie to be temp. 2nd Lt. (attd.). 25 Jan. 1917.

4/4/1918 - Wounded

8/11/1918 - Wounded

LG 2/12/1918 -  T./2nd Lieut. Alan Dunbar Leslie, 8th Bn., R. Lan. R. For conspicuous gallantry during the capture of a village. Whilst leading his platoon round a house he suddenly came on a party of the enemy; he at once attacked them, first using his revolver and then his fists. One of them, surrendered and the remainder fled. He then led his platoon along the street to his objective. Thanks to his courage and dash his platoon inflicted considerable casualties and rounded up a number of prisoners.

14/11/1919 - On Empress of France passenger list from Liverpool to Quebec. Occupation given as mounted police

LG 23/3/1919 - Dismissed the service 8/8/1919

LG 29/9/1919 - MC cancelled

21/7/1922 - Steals a schoolboy's bicycle from a church in Dover. Bound over.

21/11/1922 - Sentenced to 9 months at CLS (?)

5/1/1927 - Sentenced to 8 months for cycle stealing at Knutsford. Intended occupation on release - hotel porter, Manchester

30/7/1928 - Sentenced to 12 months for housebreaking at Manchester

25/9/1930 - Imprisoned.

22/10/1930 - Dies of TB in prison, aged 31.

4th Qtr 1930, death registered in Wandsworth.

 

[Matlock1418]

IPT - Nice one about A D Leslie - sorry sad tale about a once brave man - sort of matches some of my musings above.

PTSD??

Interesting but we had better get back on-piste for Corisande ;-)

[clk]

Hi Matlock1418,

 

Totally appreciate that you were only throwing suggestions into the ring, That has to be a good thing, as it sparks debate and challenge. As you say he was clearly recognised as a brave man, who for whatever reason subsequently fell foul of the authorities. I hope that corisande/his family can get to the bottom of it, and in remembrance of all those that served, can "recreate" his personal story for posterity.

 

Regards

Chris