Cuthbert Arthur Quin - MC removed as result of Court Martial

[corisande]

Thank you all for the recent posts, I am on a different time zone (some may say a different planet) so there is a lot of new stuff this morning for me

 

AD Leslie's CV is fascinating - thanks IPT - and I have to agree that Leslie's "crime" and Quin's "crime" are almost certainly different

 

We will probably only solve this now if the family get his Officer File as above, or if a passing Royal Fusilier/North Russia expert spots this thread at some point and has inside knowledge.

 

I will digress myself at this point to explain why I became involved in Cuthbert Quin of the Royal Fusiliers and his Court Martial.  I was contacted by CA Quin's grandson because I had a write up of another Quin - Lt Cuthbert CS Quin of Royal Fusilers who was court  martialed. CCS Quin was in ADRIC

http://theauxiliaries.com/men-alphabetical/men-p-q/quin-ccs/ccs-quin.html

Court Martialed for robbing a bank while in ADRIC

 

There was only 1 Lt Cuthbert Quin MIC, and (wrongly) I assumed it was CCS Quin. Quite honestly I never thought there would be another Cuthbert Quin in Royal Fusiliers on Suspense Account. Closer examination showed that they had different commission dates

 

So if there is a moral, it is never take anything for granted in research

 

I started this thread to see if I could help the research of CA Quin's family, in thanks for them pointing out my mistake on the MIC

[Bartimeus]

Lieutenant Quin's MC and DCM were sold by the late Fred Walland (an Essex-based medal dealer) in August 1985.

 

The catalogue description notes "Lieut. Quin was court martialled at Chateau de L'Auchin under section 6(1)(f) of the Army Act of 1913 in that he, whilst on Active Service, did violence to a person bringing supplies to the Forces". He was charged on two counts, found guilty and dismissed the service.

 

There was a copy of his birth certificate with the medals, stating that Cuthbert Arthur Quin was born at 17 Cuthill Road, Camberwell, London on 17th April 1891, the son of a commercial clerk.

 

I haven't seen the medals offered for sale again since.

 

Bart

[corisande]

Bart

 

Thank for very much for that. I was hoping that someone would come by with something like that.

 

It is interesting to see that HMG never recovered his medals. Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to what the legal position is with MC or DCM if the medals are "struck off" and the soldier does not return them. I understand that if they have not been issued then they will not be after the LG announcement. But in this case he obviously had the medals

 

It does to some extent confirm what the family had told me, which was that he flipped when told he was going to Russia - I did not want to put to much hearsay into my OP.

 

 

 

 

 

[stiletto_33853]

overseas court martial register. Last entry, if you need a full size copy let me know.

[johnboy]

Is there a page that gives the charge and punishment?

[stiletto_33853]

Last entry again, about half way down the register page. Cropped and significantly downsized to fit forum requirements.

[IPT]

Great resource.

 

So it's actually Chateau de Luchin. If it's the one in Camphin-en-Pévèle, it's now the base of Lille football club.

[johnboy]

Stiletto

Is there a link to the document? I am missing bottom and far end.  Also, is there a report of the proceedings?

[stiletto_33853]

There is no link that I know of. These are two large registers, quite substantial volumes. 1914-1917 & 1918-1919.

 

No report as such just a register of all overseas court martials. The 1914-1917 volumes has a slightly different format listing who, unit, date of offence, punishment and charge.

 

This entry covers 2 pages.

[johnboy]

Thanks

[stiletto_33853]

Welcome, I would say that I will send the photographs over but there are a lot of them, a lot.

 

Andy

[corisande]

Thanks Stiletto - confirms the medal info.

 

As they are not digitised you have gone out of your way to get that

[stiletto_33853]

Welcome, yes was looking for a couple of court martials and this was the only material I could find on them after a lot of digging around. lot of photographing.

 

Andy

[RaySearching]

As Quin's medals were sold in 1985

Is it possible that C A Quin's medals were reinstated at a later date ?

Regards Ray

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bartimeus]

3 hours ago, RaySearching said:

As Quin's medals were sold in 1985

Is it possible that C A Quin's medals were reinstated at a later date ?

Regards Ray

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

More likely I think that they had been presented to him before his offence was committed and he simply never surrendered them.

 

I have no doubt that the decorations were well earned and the citations indicate that he was a fine fighting soldier. My guess would be that there would have been some sympathy for his situation and little appetite to force him to actually give his medals up.

 

There are cases where forfeited decorations were later reinstated and these are announced in the London Gazette. In Quin's case no such annotations appear in the registers of the decorations and I can't find anything in the Gazette, so my feeling is that this did not happen for him.

 

Bart

Edited 8 July , 2016 by Bartimeus

[Bartimeus]

Here's Fred Walland's listing from 1985:

[Loader]

Sounds like he assaulted a civilian since it does not say a soldier. He certainly did not kill his target as I expect he'd have gotten a death sentence in that case. Asks more questions than it answers about the incident!

I agree there was not much desire from above to actually take his medals from him. Given the time elapsed since the awards & his fall from grace, he likely had sent his medals home & just didn't have them to hand over if  told to do so. The matter just  forgotten in the post war activities. He was indeed a brave fighting man who earned his decorations & deserved to keep them. 
 

[johnboy]

I agree with the above. Such a shame the report of proceedings has not been found [yet]

I wonder if the fact that he came up through the ranks and not via Officer Training Establishments or family connections went against him?

[clk]

Hi,

 

After some fantastic work by Pals, I guess that the challenge is now trying to link the 2 offences of "did violence to a person bringing supplies to the Forces" (whilst in a state of drunkenness??) to the family understanding that he refused to go to Russia. I guess that we will never know, but were the supplies to enable onward movement?

 

Regards

Chris

 

[IPT]

I read it to mean that he beat up a French civilian delivery driver, (possibly as a result of his anger at his North Russia posting?)

 

Would they have entered drunkenness on the register, if he had been?

[johnboy]

Drunkeness was a heading on the ledger posted by stiletto. I don't think it had been ticked.

Can you point me in the direction of any posts re a posting to Russia?

[clk]

Hi,

 

I really don't know, but I guess as he was charged on two accounts there must have been two people, or two occasions. I don't know anything about military law, but I'm thinking how do counts of GBH/ABH/common assault result in dismissal and removal of medal entitlement. I wonder if the authorities saw a bigger underlying issue at play, and that links to the family understanding that he refused to go to Russia.

 

johnboy,

 

When stiletto posted

 

11 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Last entry again, about half way down the register page

 

I've probably got it wrong again (no change there) but I took "do" in the column headed drunkenness, as meaning that he was.

 

Regards

Chris

[IPT]

4 minutes ago, clk said:

 

I've probably got it wrong again (no change there) but I took "do" in the column headed drunkenness, as meaning that he was.

 

 

I think that's Clark above.

[clk]

Hi IPT,

 

Yep. On looking at it again I think that you are absolutely right.

 

Sorry  folks.

 

Regards

Chris

[johnboy]

Is there any proof of a transfer to Russia or is it just family history? Why take it out on civilians or delivery drivers instead of an officer?