LAMB & LCP units

[david murdoch]

I have London Gazette 26/10/1920 showing Tod relinquishing his commission on completion of service. His official rank was Temporary Lieutenant and he retained the rank of Captain. 

Trawling through the L.A.M.B Brigade War diary. There is no mention of Tod by name which is strange as all the officer movements coming in or leaving or going on leave (to India). The rescue mission is noted and a few days later a mention of a wire received  from RFC congratulating them for the mission. No mention of Tod by name though his DSO was gazetted 16th September 1918. By contrast Wood's MC  is noted on 25th May 1918. On 8th April 1919 Captain Bowes-Lyon reported to to HQ and then proceeded to 8th L.A.M.B presumably to take command but it does not say who he was relieving and again no mention of Tod returning to Baghdad or leaving the Brigade. 

He is mentioned in the 8th Battery war diary as having received notification of his DSO (entry written by Wood), but there is a big chunk of the war diary missing and likely he left sometime in this period. 

[mcassell]

On 09/07/2022 at 01:14, Jeff Pickerd said:

If I can take this topic back to its beginning for moment, the reference to the "Australian Light Horse Studies Centre" for the 1st Australian Armoured Car Section, A.I.F. Sinai, has brought me to looking back through my Grandfathers photo collection. I had remembered that he had a photo of Ford Cars on railway trucks, and now on finding that again it seems certain that these are the cars of the 1st (Australian) LCP. The notation he has written on the reverse reads: "Ford Cars carrying machine guns. Rail at Kantara enroute to Sinia and Palestine."

This very much accords with the following quote from Captain E. H. James in the manuscript "The Motor Patrol." :-

"After spending the day in the train we ultimately arrived at the Nile Valley and transferred from narrow gauge train to the broad gauge Egyptian State Railway's train at oasis Junction, and after another night and day, the train, we arrived at Cairo at 10 P.M. only to be immediately shunted off to the train to Kantara which was reached at 11.30 A.M. on 21st May (1917)."

As can be seen from the photo, all of the cars have been unsecured, with the ropes lying on the ground. This would also accord with Captain James:- "We unloaded here and packed our baggage once more on to our fleet of "Lizzies" and drove across the Canal by the pontoon bridge to the terminus of the new Military Railways to Palestine."

For me, this puts the date, and time, of my Grandfathers photo to that outlined by Captain James, now another of his photos that can I finally place.

Jeff

About time we have separate Light Car Patrol thread. Very small unit, 20 officers, about 100 men. Very undervalued. Have 'bank book' listing officers, bunch of Model T tools relating to LCPs, couple of maps and manuals. Hope someone will start.

[mcassell]

9 hours ago, david murdoch said:

I have London Gazette 26/10/1920 showing Tod relinquishing his commission on completion of service. His official rank was Temporary Lieutenant and he retained the rank of Captain. 

Trawling through the L.A.M.B Brigade War diary. There is no mention of Tod by name which is strange as all the officer movements coming in or leaving or going on leave (to India). The rescue mission is noted and a few days later a mention of a wire received  from RFC congratulating them for the mission. No mention of Tod by name though his DSO was gazetted 16th September 1918. By contrast Wood's MC  is noted on 25th May 1918. On 8th April 1919 Captain Bowes-Lyon reported to to HQ and then proceeded to 8th L.A.M.B presumably to take command but it does not say who he was relieving and again no mention of Tod returning to Baghdad or leaving the Brigade. 

He is mentioned in the 8th Battery war diary as having received notification of his DSO (entry written by Wood), but there is a big chunk of the war diary missing and likely he left sometime in this period. 

Great forensic work, adds to theory that Captain Tod had another agenda. MGC Motors Officers of LAMBS were replaced by MGC Inantry volunteers in early 1919 - i.e. Lieutenant Jefferys - and they were not a success. Loss of  6 RRs (8 snd 14 LAMBs) at Tashlujah and Bazian passes in Kurdistan and Tal Afar affair demonstrate this. Why these men volunteered for AC duty is a mystery tho at least one had family history of ownership of RR.

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, mcassell said:

About time we have separate Light Car Patrol thread. Very small unit, 20 officers, about 100 men. Very undervalued. Have 'bank book' listing officers, bunch of Model T tools relating to LCPs, couple of maps and manuals. Hope someone will start.

This thread was originally Light Car Patrol and armoured cars - Egypt/Palestine. There is a lot more on the L.A.M.Bs in Mesopotamia  on the long running  Rolls Royce Armoured Cars thread.

 

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, mcassell said:

Great forensic work, adds to theory that Captain Tod had another agenda. MGC Motors Officers of LAMBS were replaced by MGC Inantry volunteers in early 1919 - i.e. Lieutenant Jefferys - and they were not a success. Loss of  6 RRs (8 snd 14 LAMBs) at Tashlujah and Bazian passes in Kurdistan and Tal Afar affair demonstrate this. Why these men volunteered for AC duty is a mystery tho at least one had family history of ownership of RR.

More hunting in the London Gazette. Lt. D. Tod is shown to be acting Captain from June 4th 1917 while commanding a Battery. This matches with him joining 9th L.A.B  June 3rd in France from 7th L.A.B. His Medal Index Card shows his date of entry (to France) only as "1917", but the 7th L.A.B diary is very sparse and does not mention either joining or leaving them. So he was OC of 9th L.A.B until they were merged into 8th L.A.M.B - so of the two battery commanders he took over as OC of the new unit.  There is another Gazette entry showing him reverting to his original rank of Temporary Lieutenant on ceasing to command a Battery on 28th April 1919 - this corresponds to a handover period after Bowes Lyon arrived. So he had another 18 months service elsewhere after that. 

[mcassell]

Very useful info for Tod story, thanks for sharing. Record like TE Lawrence, Leachman, etc, all hitching rides with RRs of LAMBs at some point. As said before, LAMBs and LCPs were forerunners of LRDG and SAS but apart from Lawrence's Seven Pillars nothing known about them. Wish could connect Captain Tod with oil - huge issue for Admiralty, Foreign Office during and after Great War - but FOIA notwithstanding not a lot out there. RRs seem to have been well supplied.

[david murdoch]

Futher update on Tod, I've found a death date for his father of 16/5/1892 in Glasgow - aged 31 (found death certificate) leaving sons David aged 5 and William aged 3 and a widow Jessie aged 28. However he left a probate of £33,798 which is a lot for a farmer from Skye! There is a very extensive will for him on Scotland's people showing he had inherited from his father William Tod who was a ship builder.  David and his brother had trust funds and allowances until the age of 25. David is shown on the 1901 census being at boarding school at Ovingdean Sussex and on 1911 staying with his mother and step father  - no occupation but supported by "private means". On the electoral registers he seems to have returned to his mother's address (or never changed his voting address, then 1921 has a couple of addresses - including the one on his MIC. He is not on the 1921 Census at his mother's house and not seeing a match for him elsewhere. 

I've now found he left the UK for Canada on 17th February 1922 to farm in Enderby, British Columbia, aged 34 and single. So looking now at Canadian records.

Edited 14 July , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Thanks David for taking time and effort to root out Captain Tod's life - way beyond what I was able to achieve. Pity oil connection is still obscure tho, as said, think earlier correspondent linked him erroneously to Arthur Tod. 

[david murdoch]

I'm hoping to identify this man from my grandfather's photos. He may be 8th L.A.M.B, but possibly a sergeant from another battery who was a friend. It appears they were out maybe on a sightseeing trip and off duty- probably 1919. They took each other's photo in the same location. This chap is wearing four overseas chevrons indicating he was probably an old MMGS hand and also has Military Medal. They are both fairly smartly dressed. The unknown Sgt is showing off the L.A.M.B badge on his helmet and also wearing leather gaiters, so they were perhaps out on a motorbike.

[pjwmacro]

34 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

also has Military Medal

Great photos - thanks for sharing.  Do you know the location?  Do you have a consolidated list of MMGS/MGC(M) MM recipients?

[david murdoch]

3 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Great photos - thanks for sharing.  Do you know the location?  Do you have a consolidated list of MMGS/MGC(M) MM recipients?

I have a filter list of 29 MGC(M) Military Medal winners - 10 of these are later MGC numbers - of the 19 MMGS numbers several have known (motorcycle) units. I've looked before, but I need to revisit and try do narrow down by elimination - checking discharge dates and also possible pension records that may indicate service in Mesopotamia. This chap may also have won his MM while still a gunner or a corporal in France. 

[mcassell]

MM cards show about 100 MMs to MGC (Motors)/MMGS, excising HB/HS tho probably a few included. MEF Orders of the Day (1918 and 1919 seen) dont show any 8 LAMB MM recipients tho Dunsterforce MMs are just listed as MGC. Suspect pic is of 2168 Sergeant A. Haig, 2338 Sergeant C McK Hampton, or 1525 Sergeant J Harlow, of course, not counting possible earlier award. 1066 Sergeant D Ford is another possibility tho doesnt show up on MEF Orders of the Day. Family said in Palestine and Cairo but no confirmation. Hope this helps - great photo - but hope not another wild goose chase!

[mcassell]

MMs known to Church, Knox, Melrose (Dunsterforce)  all impressed MGC. Harlow MM, which has appeared at auction, impressed 13 LAMB.

[mcassell]

According to my records, the following MGC(M)/ MMGS MMs have apeared for sale in last 40: Broadhurst ,Chattaway, Church, 32158 Davis, Evans, Galloway, Harlow, Knox,  McEvoy, Melrose, Moores, Sanders, Stokes and White. Medals to Ford and Black with family. Apart from Harlow and Dunsterforce gentlemen, no known connection with Meso.

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, david murdoch said:

This chap may also have won his MM while still a gunner or a corporal in France

True and given quite a number fought in both France and Messoptamia I'm not sure we have really narrowed the field much !

 

3 hours ago, mcassell said:

Harlow MM, which has appeared at auction, impressed 13 LAMB

He sounds the most likely  - but I think it's impossible for do more than try an narrow the list without some defining clue.

[david murdoch]

6 hours ago, mcassell said:

MM cards show about 100 MMs to MGC (Motors)/MMGS, excising HB/HS tho probably a few included. MEF Orders of the Day (1918 and 1919 seen) dont show any 8 LAMB MM recipients tho Dunsterforce MMs are just listed as MGC. Suspect pic is of 2168 Sergeant A. Haig, 2338 Sergeant C McK Hampton, or 1525 Sergeant J Harlow, of course, not counting possible earlier award. 1066 Sergeant D Ford is another possibility tho doesnt show up on MEF Orders of the Day. Family said in Palestine and Cairo but no confirmation. Hope this helps - great photo - but hope not another wild goose chase!

2168 Adam Haig was a Sergeant with 14th L.A.M.B. He enlisted very close to my grandfather. I have a known photo of him in his MMG battery in UK 22nd June 1916 that he sent to his brother, so not him. He went directly to Mesopotamia from UK with 14th L.A.M.B

2338 Colin Hampton I also have photo of  - he was also Scottish - ex goalkeeper for Motherwell FC He was 28th MMG and then original member of 14th L.A.M.B.

Edited 14 July , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Once get out of hospital will post pics of 14 LAMB personnel, including nice one of Captain N F Somerset and NCOs, given to me by his 'secretary' along with MGC(M) collar dog and a few Glosters items. Was student Bristol Uni 1973-1980.

[david murdoch]

30 minutes ago, mcassell said:

Once get out of hospital will post pics of 14 LAMB personnel, including nice one of Captain N F Somerset and NCOs, given to me by his 'secretary' along with MGC(M) collar dog and a few Glosters items. Was student Bristol Uni 1973-1980.

There is a separate thread for Somerset. He also ended up in India 

 

[mcassell]

Sorry to awaken old thread (again). Just have Somerset stuff listed in post. Will be few weeks until can post.

[david murdoch]

On 14/07/2022 at 23:23, mcassell said:

Sorry to awaken old thread (again). Just have Somerset stuff listed in post. Will be few weeks until can post.

I have MMG battery photo of Adam Haig MM - dated mid 1916 in UK, and also several other unidentified MMG battery photos. I don't have a good wartime photo of Somerset, but if I can identify him can probably identify the battery. He commanded one of those batteries that were disbanded and re configured into a L.A.M.B battery. A couple of 14th L.A.M.B members previously served with 28th MMG. 20th MMG disbanded and converted to 13th L.A.M.B in UK June 1916, but appear to already have been a light car battery in 1915 rather than motorcycles. 14th L.A.M.B was formed in UK around same time and embarked directly to Mesopotamia on 29th October 1916 - taking 2 months to arrive in Basra.

The MMG batteries remaining in UK after the  February 1916 clear out were 20th 21st, 23rd, 25th 26th 27th and 28th. Already men had transferred to the L.A.B units in France in March 1916 as the RNAS cars were already there and Heavy Section was in planning ad a number of those personnel show first service with these batteries. So all these batteries became defunct May/June 1916.

Edited 16 July , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Just located the above of RRs wrecked in Kurdistan 1919. Have seen a set of these offered for sale before so perhaps 'official' rather than personal. These were with the KG Jefferys pictures but are annotated: left (top) 2 are from 8 LAMB; right (lower) 14 LAMB. Had thought that officer in second 8 LAMB pic was Jefferys himself - reverse says 'I have to shift these'.  Hope of interest. 

[david murdoch]

On 19/07/2022 at 18:50, mcassell said:

Just located the above of RRs wrecked in Kurdistan 1919. Have seen a set of these offered for sale before so perhaps 'official' rather than personal. These were with the KG Jefferys pictures but are annotated: left (top) 2 are from 8 LAMB; right (lower) 14 LAMB. Had thought that officer in second 8 LAMB pic was Jefferys himself - reverse says 'I have to shift these'.  Hope of interest. 

 

 

 

 

These are great photos. Interesting to note all four cars burnt out  - this likely done by the crews if they had to abandon the vehicles, or could have been done by the locals as they lay abandoned for just over two months. The car with the extended turret is on of the ex 9th L.A.B cars from France - of those three that went to Mesopotamia  this one obviously wrecked, one ended up with 7th ACC Tank Corps in India and one shows up with 2nd ACC Tank Corps in Iraq  - with replacement solid wheels ect.

The two 14th L.A.M.B cars were likely late war or early 1919 replacements. they are 1914 models, but with deeper turret which became the standard on  the 1920 model. 

According to Brigade war diary the four cars were lost just prior to 27th May 1919 in the vicinity of Kirkuk. Replacement cars sent from Baghdad by rail to Baiji (north of Tikrit on the Mosul road)  as obviously some urgency. 

14th L.A.M.B have a casualty Killed in Action 25th May 1919.  1976 A/Sgt. Thomas Edward John Price.  Unfortunately the unit war diary the scan is all blurred for that period so is not legible. So no detail of what happened.

A later entry on 3rd August 1919 indicates these cars or parts were recovered and brought back to Baghdad. This probably dates the wreck photos to late July 1919 and the officer may be Lieutenant Tuffill mentioned in the war diary. Likely he was Lt Daniel William Tuffill ASC and probably workshops crew. 

Edited 21 July , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Thanks for the additional info. Would agree that officer standing by RR is most likely Lieutenant DW Tuffill ASC. The RRs were not burnt out just stripped of guns, tires, fittings and wood, hence salvageable. Basically, all 4 cars were lost in a foolish and unauthorized attempt on 25 May to rescue political and levy officers taken prisoner by a Kurdish chieftain at Sulaimanya. The 8 LAMB cars under Lieutenant Jefferys accompanied the instigator of the attempt, Lt.Col. AH Bridges, but column was ambushed at the Tashlujah Pass west Sulaimaniya and 8 LAMB cars were abandoned. The 14 LAMB cars under Major VEC Dashwood were ordered to cover retreat of column thru next pass, the Bazian, but got into difficulties and were abandoned when attacked by Kurds , Sgt Price and Driver Skilbeck ASC, were shot dead and Dashwood and rest stripped of valuables and clothing. 1966 Corporal Victor McKenzie awarded MM but why have never been able to trace.

Poor old Major Dashwood suffered another disaster as OC 14 LAMB on 4 June 1920 when 2 RRs under command of Lieutenant C Smith MC were ambushed at Tal Afar in Iraq in a narrow street. In this case, Smith, 6 MGC(M) men, 4 men attached from Northumberland Fusiliers, and 5 Indian drivers were killed and their bodies mutilated. Only Smith's Arab servant escaped.

[david murdoch]

43 minutes ago, mcassell said:

Thanks for the additional info. Would agree that officer standing by RR is most likely Lieutenant DW Tuffill ASC. The RRs were not burnt out just stripped of guns, tires, fittings and wood, hence salvageable. Basically, all 4 cars were lost in a foolish and unauthorized attempt on 25 May to rescue political and levy officers taken prisoner by a Kurdish chieftain at Sulaimanya. The 8 LAMB cars under Lieutenant Jefferys accompanied the instigator of the attempt, Lt.Col. AH Bridges, but column was ambushed at the Tashlujah Pass west Sulaimaniya and 8 LAMB cars were abandoned. The 14 LAMB cars under Major VEC Dashwood were ordered to cover retreat of column thru next pass, the Bazian, but got into difficulties and were abandoned when attacked by Kurds , Sgt Price and Driver Skilbeck ASC, were shot dead and Dashwood and rest stripped of valuables and clothing. 1966 Corporal Victor McKenzie awarded MM but why have never been able to trace.

Poor old Major Dashwood suffered another disaster as OC 14 LAMB on 4 June 1920 when 2 RRs under command of Lieutenant C Smith MC were ambushed at Tal Afar in Iraq in a narrow street. In this case, Smith, 6 MGC(M) men, 4 men attached from Northumberland Fusiliers, and 5 Indian drivers were killed and their bodies mutilated. Only Smith's Arab servant escaped.

There is a record for Skilbeck showing he died on 26th from gunshot wound to the abdomen. McKenzie possibly for rescuing someone in a bad situation.  He was Victor Reginald and my grandfather was Reginald Victor. McKenzie was actually from Haverfordwest in Wales. He was also awarded the GSM with Kurdistan clasp. He had a disability pension for malaria and died  8th August 1935 in Chepstow, Gloucestershire. He was a motor engineer to trade, which fits his MMGS enlistment.

The incident at Tal Afar is better documented. 

Edited 21 July , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

It took quite a time to comb out the details of the loss of the RRs in Kurdistan from 'higher' formation documents, given paltry info in 14 LAMB diary and 'missing' section of 8 LAMB.  BTW, the cars at Tal Afar were burnt, along with the accompanying 4 Ford vans. There is an RAF report dated 5 June 1920 from a recce over Tal Afar that saw armoured cars and other vehicles on fire.

Interesting to compare success of ACs in Western Desert, Palestine, Sinai and Mesopotamia during the war with their somewhat disastrous record post-war. 6 LAMB nearly came a cropper on the Upper Euphrates when besieged at Deir es Zor and Albu Kemal in 1919. A relief column had to be sent out including a section of cars of 8 LAMB commanded by none other than Lieutenant KG Jefferys!