LAMB & LCP units

[mcassell]

Attached are a few photographs of armoured cars of 8 LAMB in Mesopotamia from the J L Wood album.  The first shows battery leaving Basra (earliest one showing ACs) en route to riverboat going to Baghdad. Note the three different turret types. Second shows OC Captain W. Ingles with Gunner Eccles and RR chassis.  Third shows armoured cars with captured Turkish aircraft. The final shows 8 LAMB section at Sherqat in May 1919. This was from a packet of loose photos taken by Lieutenant K G Jefferys in Kurdistan (where he lost his 2 cars!). I am beginning to scan both the Wood and Jefferys photographs but with a total of 120 images it may take time! Hope of interest.

[david murdoch]

13 hours ago, mcassell said:

Attached are a few photographs of armoured cars of 8 LAMB in Mesopotamia from the J L Wood album.  The first shows battery leaving Basra (earliest one showing ACs) en route to riverboat going to Baghdad. Note the three different turret types. Second shows OC Captain W. Ingles with Gunner Eccles and RR chassis.  Third shows armoured cars with captured Turkish aircraft. The final shows 8 LAMB section at Sherqat in May 1919. This was from a packet of loose photos taken by Lieutenant K G Jefferys in Kurdistan (where he lost his 2 cars!). I am beginning to scan both the Wood and Jefferys photographs but with a total of 120 images it may take time! Hope of interest.

These are of great interest to me. 8th L.A.M.B arrived in Basra and disembarked 27th December 1917 then proceeded to camp at Magil, then Makina on 25th January  Presumably acclimatising period.  They  started loading on the two barges 8th - 12th February and moved up river disembarking Baghdad 19th February 1918. The four cars with  box turret extensions are the former 8th L.A.B cars still with splinter camouflage from France the other cars are the 9th  L.A.B cars - however the three with the turret extensions had been swapped over from 7th L.A.B in France in July 1917  The fourth car with extended turret remained with 7th L.A.B but was then traded when they were en route to Mesopotamia, and M^230 ended up in East Africa. The later photos show that these box turret extensions were retained - something I was not sure of as there (until now) only been two or three photos showing them. 1 in France and two in Mesopotamia.

 

 

 

Edited 28 June , 2022 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

The planes here look to be an Albatross DIII with the V struts and probably and Albatross DII behind. Likely location is the aerodrome at Hit in March 1918.

Edited 9 July , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Attached are a few more pics from the albums of Wood and Jefferys.  The first shows the ACs on the lighters before moving up the Tigris. Caption reads: "Cars embarked.'; second is rather poor group photo of the 8 LAMB officers after their arrival at Baghdad, They are (back row) Lieutenants H Bentham,  W. Ingles ("decapitated"), G H Osborne, (front row) J L Wood and A M Ketley. Third is better portrait of Ingles; next is AC of 14 LAMB. Caption reads: 14th LAMB Car destroyed by shell fire. One killed Col. Thompson & 2 of crew captured. SHAQAT. Last is portrait of Colonel Gerard Leachman when he visited 8 LAMB. Of course, he is more famous for his exploits with 6 LAMB after the War. Two armoured cars of 6 LAMB brought his body back to Baghdad after he was murdered by Arabs.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The Ottomans ran a few Sqn's/Companies in the area (Mesopotiana)

2nd Air Company (Recce) - formed (2x Bleriot XI 2 (Edremit and Tarik bin Ziyad) 11-14 lost on way to 3rd Army reported 203 men lost when ships sunk by Russian Fleet in Black Sea - reformed 12-15 for Mesopotamia (18th Corps) shown (4x Pfalz A2) (P1 2 3 & 4) + captured Farman MF 7 (A2212) & Cauldron G3 4 pilots & 4 obsvers 11x ground crew at Baghdad to Aziziye & Kut 1-16 shown 1x Fokker E1 (F3) 4-16 shown 1x Albatros B1 2x Albatros C1 (AK3 & 5) 5-16 shown 4 pilots & 4 obsvers (1x Albatros C3 (AK10 11 & 13) 1x Albatros C1 (AK7) 3x Fokker E3 (F10 11 & 12) 9-16 shown Halberstadt D5 (HK 2 3 & 6) & Fokkers?) at Samarra 4-17 at Hamare near Tikrut 4-17 shown (3x Albatros C3 (64 66 & 68) 5-17 shown formed 11th Air Company aircraft 5x Albatros C3 (AK61 70 73 75 & 76) 8-17 moved to El Humr 11-17 shown (3x Halberstadt D5 3x AEG (AEG6 9 &12) 12-17 west of Eathe 1-18 combined Albatros D3 & Halberstadt D5 with the 13th Sqn 4-18 to Humr or El-Ashiq by 5-18
 

11th Air Company (Artillery (Co-Op) Recce) - formed for 2nd Army Caucasian Front at Yesilköy 5-17 arrived 4 pilots 5 obsvers 8x Albatros C3 (AK61 70 73 75 & 76 + 71 77 & 78) at Mosul 8-17 some accounts say moved to Nuseybin Mesopotamia minor account on operation to Kermanshah but disbanded to 2nd and 12th Air Company's at Mosul 8-17 possibly reformed at Istanbul 11-18 -

12th Air Company - formed (1x Albatros C1 (AK3) from 2 Sqn as Hanikin Flight Detechment at Hanikin Mesopotamia (13th Corps) at Kizilrebat 6-16 + 1x unknown advance to Kermanshah 7-16 shown 1x Albatros C3 (AK10) 9-16 reported no planes 1-17 combined with 2nd Sqn at Samarra 3-17 reformed as (fighter) Sqn 1x Halberstadt D5 (HK4) 1x Fokker E3 (F5) at Sarsalli 3-17 moved to Menemen 4-17 shown 3 (P) Albatros C3 (AK47) from 5th Sqn & Albatros D2 (AKD1) 12-17 shown Albatros D2 (AKD1) Albatros C3 (AK49) Halberstadt D5 (HK4) 1-18 shown 1x Fokker D1 (FD4) at Sarsalli 4-18 shown with 15th Air Company at Smyrna Jan 1918 still operational at Trakia on Bulgarian Front 10-18 -

13th Air Company (Fighter) - formed for (13th Corps) from the disbanded 12th Air Company (3x Albatros C3 (55 57 & 67) 5-17 at Mosul in Mesopotamia 4-17 to Kifri 5-17 shown from 11th Sqn 3x Albatros C3 (AK71 77 & 78) 8-17 shown 5x AEG C4 (AEG4 10 11 & 7066 7068) 3x Halberstadt D5 12-17 shown Kifri near Mosul and rear base at Tuz Khurmatly 1-18 combined with 2nd Sqn at Kirkuk 4-18

These Sqns/companies were mixed groups of German/Ottoman aircrews.

Operational strength veried due to poor maintence and lack of parts and skill of the men.

S.B

[david murdoch]

The wrecked car was one of 14th L.A.M.Bs. It took a direct shell hit  on 27th October 1918. It's mentioned in the L.A.M.B Brigade diary as the Brigade commander was travelling in it at the time and was taken prisoner. He was repatriated on 2nd November. The man killed in this incident I believe was Lance Corporal 2171 John Morton Thompson DCM of 14th L.A.M.B He was posthumously awarded DCM (Feb 1920) for action on 27th October 1918 the day he was killed. He was actually serving under an alias. He has no known grave and is remembered on the Basra Memorial. Presumably this photo was taken a day or two after when it was salvaged.

Edited 29 June , 2022 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

Of these officers I have the following.

Lieutenant Harry Bentham (Ex Private 6155 19th Royal Fusiliers) Date of entry 14/11/1915 France with RF. Commissioned 4/8/1916 and served with 9th L.A.B in France. 

Lieutenant George Hall Osborne (Ex Private PS-8495 21st Royal Fusiliers ) Date of entry  14/11/1915 France with RF. Commissioned 4/8/1916 and served with 9th L.A.B in France. 

Lieutenant  John Lionel Wood MC (Ex 2nd Lieutenant 19th Royal Fusiliers) Date of entry 9/3/1916  and  served with 8th L.A.B in France, 2 OC of 8th L.A.M.B ( he wrote up the war diary).

Lieutenant Austyn Maxwell Ketley. Enlisted 9/1/1915 Royal Navy F2997 "for land operations" Joined 8th L.A.B in France 24/2/1917, 8th L.A.M.B in Mesopotamia then with 19th MMG Battery in India. 

I have nothing on W. Ingles yet.  He does not appear on the Army lists as being an Motors officer. He does not come up in the battery war diaries or the LA.M.B brigade diary. He appears to be 2nd Lieutenant. Looks like him on the right standing by the cars (again these are the four ex 8th L.A.B cars) 

 

Edited 6 July , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Apologies about 'W Ingles'. A note in one of my notebooks says 2nd Lieutenant W Inglis, ASC attached. Wood just mispelled it!

[david murdoch]

9 hours ago, mcassell said:

Apologies about 'W Ingles'. A note in one of my notebooks says 2nd Lieutenant W Inglis, ASC attached. Wood just mispelled it!

Thanks for that. Pretty sure this is him. With an address picking him up on the 1911 Scotland Census. aged 18 and an apprentice mechanical engineer in an engineering works, which would fit with him joining ASC Mechanical Transport. 

[mcassell]

Note Inglis got an emblem for MID, though not on my list and cant find in London Gazette. Mespot?

[pjwmacro]

19 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Lieutenant Austyn Maxwell Ketley. Enlisted 9/1/1915 Royal Navy F2997 "for land operations" Joined 8th L.A.B in France 24/2/1917, 8th L.A.M.B in Mesopotamia then with 19th MMG Battery in India. 

Ketley? Seated fringe right as one looks at the photo????

[david murdoch]

51 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Ketley? Seated fringe right as one looks at the photo????

Yes - that's him.

[david murdoch]

Medal cards of the officers. Includes CO. The headcounts for the battery usually shows them split up in different locations and always people in hospital. February 1918 shows six officers and 106 other ranks. In the case of L.A.M.B units there were more ASC other ranks due to the armoured car No.1 and No.2 drivers, all the support vehicle drivers and the battery workshop. The workshop having 1 ASC officer and around 25 other ranks. MGC(M) No.1 and No.2 gunners and all the motorcycle riders. Officers CO, 4 section officers and ASC officer in charge of the attached workshop. I'd say wood being the senior section officer and 2OC as he wrote up the war diary per pro.

Edited 7 July , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Oddly, there is not a single shot of Captain Tod in the Wood album, at least one not identified as such. Captain Tod remained in Baghdad after the war, and was a friend of Gertrude Bell. He may have been a rep for an oil company. One US source states that he was the man who passed gold supplied by Standard Oil of New York to the Iraqi tribes and was, in part, responsible for starting the 1919-20 insurrection against British mandate.

[pjwmacro]

Great stuff both- thanks for sharing.

[mcassell]

Slight correction. My notes on the Tod connection with SOCONY refers to A Tod, not D. Tod. Gertrude Bell stayed with Arthur and Aurelia Tod in Baghdad, and he was an agent of Anglo-Persian Oil, as was their son George who got a CBE for his work with APOC. Other than Arthur and David Tod coming from south-east Scotland, I couldnt find a connection. I recall, re-reading my notes, feeling that Captain David Tod DSO was a bit of a mystery: no picture in Wood album, Lieutenant Wood running 8 LAMB, virtually no post-war record of him that I can find. Maybe interesting story here, given US very angry after San Remo Conference at not being allowed oil concessions in Iraq.

[david murdoch]

13 hours ago, mcassell said:

Slight correction. My notes on the Tod connection with SOCONY refers to A Tod, not D. Tod. Gertrude Bell stayed with Arthur and Aurelia Tod in Baghdad, and he was an agent of Anglo-Persian Oil, as was their son George who got a CBE for his work with APOC. Other than Arthur and David Tod coming from south-east Scotland, I couldnt find a connection. I recall, re-reading my notes, feeling that Captain David Tod DSO was a bit of a mystery: no picture in Wood album, Lieutenant Wood running 8 LAMB, virtually no post-war record of him that I can find. Maybe interesting story here, given US very angry after San Remo Conference at not being allowed oil concessions in Iraq.

I have David Tod born 13/10/1887 in Baracdale, Isle of Skye , Inverness shire. Parents David Tod b.1861 and Jessie Mary Ross b. 1864.  On 1911 Census he was aged 23 and living at Littlebrook, Ray Park Road, Maidenhead Berks, with his mother Jessie Mary Tattersall and step father Rupert Reeve Tattersall. . He shows up in the newspapers May 1918 as having been awarded the DSO, linking him to Maidenhead. This was awarded for his rescue of Major Percy Hobart and Lt Colonel Tennant (commander of RFC in Mesopotamia.) on 28th March 1918. There is a good account of this in Tennant's book In The Clouds Above Baghdad. This details his forced landing behind enemy lines, capture and subsequent rescue by cars of 8th L.A.M.B. Interestingly Tod's date of entry (France) is only in 1917. He was previously OC of 21st MMG (which never left UK) It's likely he transferred to armoured cars when they were disbanded.  His MIC shows he was living in Taplow, Berks when he applied for his medals. I will dig more to find what became of him. There are a couple of family trees on Ancestry but they do not give much further information.

Edited 8 July , 2022 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

Major Percy Hobart

I take it this is Percy 'Hobo' Hobart, later RTC who went on to command 7, 11 and then 79 Armoured Divisions during WW2? Think the Clouds above Baghdad needs to go on my reading list!

Best, Paul 

[mcassell]

Nice piece of research, especially linking Tod's Scottish birthplace with Maidenhead. I couldn't do that! I still think there is something 'Special Ops' about Captain Tod, the rescue of Hobart and Tennant being a perfect example. He left 8 LAMB in the hands of Lieutenant Wood who got into a bit of trouble near Ana but won the MC.

My interest in Tod came when I was contacted by someone (the email has long gone) who either had Captain David Tod's medal group or knew of its existence. The suggestion was made that he was an 'agent' working for oil interests. While I think there is a good chance there was confusion with Arthur Tod, it is, in my opinion, more than coincidence that finds an officer called Tod, in charge of an armoured car unit,  ending up in Mosul, with its vast oil reserves. Arthur Tod's wife Aurelia was born in Kars, a largely Armenian city in western Turkey. Her family was affiliated with Calouste Gulbenkian, the Armenian oil baron who was very anxious to secure the ( as yet untapped) Mosul oil for British and French (and his) interests. There may be a story here linking 8 LAMB with the global oil business!

[david murdoch]

10 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

I take it this is Percy 'Hobo' Hobart, later RTC who went on to command 7, 11 and then 79 Armoured Divisions during WW2? Think the Clouds above Baghdad needs to go on my reading list!

Best, Paul 

Yes the same man - he was Royal Engineers at the time. I have an online download of The Clouds Above Baghdad. it's too big a file to post here, but I'll send it to you.

[MaureenE]

In the Clouds above Baghdad, being the Records of an Air Commander by Lt-Col J E Tennant 1920 Archive.org

Maureen

[Jeff Pickerd]

If I can take this topic back to its beginning for moment, the reference to the "Australian Light Horse Studies Centre" for the 1st Australian Armoured Car Section, A.I.F. Sinai, has brought me to looking back through my Grandfathers photo collection. I had remembered that he had a photo of Ford Cars on railway trucks, and now on finding that again it seems certain that these are the cars of the 1st (Australian) LCP. The notation he has written on the reverse reads: "Ford Cars carrying machine guns. Rail at Kantara enroute to Sinia and Palestine."

This very much accords with the following quote from Captain E. H. James in the manuscript "The Motor Patrol." :-

"After spending the day in the train we ultimately arrived at the Nile Valley and transferred from narrow gauge train to the broad gauge Egyptian State Railway's train at oasis Junction, and after another night and day, the train, we arrived at Cairo at 10 P.M. only to be immediately shunted off to the train to Kantara which was reached at 11.30 A.M. on 21st May (1917)."

As can be seen from the photo, all of the cars have been unsecured, with the ropes lying on the ground. This would also accord with Captain James:- "We unloaded here and packed our baggage once more on to our fleet of "Lizzies" and drove across the Canal by the pontoon bridge to the terminus of the new Military Railways to Palestine."

For me, this puts the date, and time, of my Grandfathers photo to that outlined by Captain James, now another of his photos that can I finally place.

Jeff

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I am unsure about this bloke, but I have a A Tod in the ICC, but have been unable to identify him?

Tod    AJ        Capt    Tos Adjt HQ/3Bn 12-16 to Adjt HQ/2Bn (from Pape) 18-1-17 to 5-17 att Admin HQ/ICC Bde 5-17 (to OC 9Co not confirmed) to OC Yeo Res Co CTU (from Gregory) 6-17 and T/Adjt CTU 8-17 rtn 2Bn 10-17 to 11-17 to OC 10Co (possibly from Wilkinson) 12-17 to OC British Res Co CTU (from Snow) 2-18 rtn shown T/2ic 2Bn HQ (replaced Winterton) 4-18 to T/CO HQ/2Bn 8-18 rtn OC 6Co (replaced Houghton) 8-18 Ex 2/Lt Scottish Horse Yeo to Maj Indian Bearer Corps
 

So not the A Tod you mentioned?

S.B

 

[pjwmacro]

5 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Yes the same man - he was Royal Engineers at the time

Thanks David.  I thought as much.

5 hours ago, MaureenE said:

In the Clouds above Baghdad, being the Records of an Air Commander by Lt-Col J E Tennant 1920 Archive.org

Maureen

Thanks Maureen 

[mcassell]

8 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Mate,

I am unsure about this bloke, but I have a A Tod in the ICC, but have been unable to identify him?

Tod    AJ        Capt    Tos Adjt HQ/3Bn 12-16 to Adjt HQ/2Bn (from Pape) 18-1-17 to 5-17 att Admin HQ/ICC Bde 5-17 (to OC 9Co not confirmed) to OC Yeo Res Co CTU (from Gregory) 6-17 and T/Adjt CTU 8-17 rtn 2Bn 10-17 to 11-17 to OC 10Co (possibly from Wilkinson) 12-17 to OC British Res Co CTU (from Snow) 2-18 rtn shown T/2ic 2Bn HQ (replaced Winterton) 4-18 to T/CO HQ/2Bn 8-18 rtn OC 6Co (replaced Houghton) 8-18 Ex 2/Lt Scottish Horse Yeo to Maj Indian Bearer Corps
 

So not the A Tod you mentioned?

S.B

 

Thanks for looking but the 'oil' man is AWM Tod. I have not been able to find any military or political connections for this man so have assumed he was a businessman.