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Remembered Today:

LAMB & LCP units


Eran Tearosh

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That's a cracking photo of 2nd LAB!   Gives a good idea of the ratio of ASC to MGC(M) personnel in these units. Looks like a couple of them may be wearing original cap badges with MMG lettering.

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Steve,

 

What makes you think that a 'conversion' is involved? Looking at the original prints, I see no very obvious examples of the same personnel in 2 LCP and 2 LACB. Since 2 LCP was attached to 2 LACB one would, presumably, expect different personnel in each. The only likely duplication is the commanding officer in each photo - Lt. Hamilton in the LCP photo - but having looked carefully I conclude that they are not one and the same person. My grandfather, Sergeant-mechanic with 2 LCP - identified in the photo reproduced in Russell McGuirk's book, and the source of both photos - never spoke of being part of 2 LACB. 

 

As my previous post mentions, in December 1918 Hamilton signed himself as commanding Nos. 2 & 4 LCPs, but makes no mention of being the senior officer in 2 LACB.  

 

Ian

 

Edited by Ian Morton
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On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 21:32, stevebecker said:

Mates,

 

What I find interesting is what looks like a converision from LCP to LACB with RR AC's and not Ford Cars?

 

S.B

These are two  different units - No.2 AMB (LACB) which was part of the Light Armoured Car Brigade (along with 1st and 3rd AMBs) and No.2 Light Car Patrol LCP.

Looking at the details in this photo, I'll be looking to identify some of these people if possible. Going by the number of personnel probably equates to the crews for four armoured cars plus their support trucks and motorcycles. Given the convention in photos for seating by rank with CO in the middle (light cap) the 2IC to his left (right looking at the photo) and to his left is likely a WO ( possibly BSM).  The WO and 2IC and one of the MGC sergeants  look to be wearing medal ribbons. In that row the two MGC sergeants  - probably be car commanders. One clearly wearing an MMG cap badge and the other possibly - he is also wearing looks like 4 overseas chevrons - so probably both are original MMGS men. The ASC sergeant next to the CO is most likely the artificer (chief mechanic) and the senior ASC man. The lance corporal seated on the end of that row has a good conduct stripe and overseas chevrons also. Noting a few of them (both MGC and ASC) have all dark buttons, the MGC chap at the front has one dark  mourning button - he is also wearing leather gaiters, so probably one of the scout motorcyclists. On thing no sign of is machine gun trade badges - as if worn, these are usually deliberately shown off.

 

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Mates,

 

Sorry I am confussed here?

 

You posted;

 

Oct 1917 - 2, 3 and 4 LCPs transferred from Western Desert to Palestine

 

Yet you also show

 

No. 2 LCP left Sollum on 11th October 1918, beginning a journey through Palestine and Syria, joining the 5th Cavalry Division near Hama

 

members of 2 LCP to go into Aleppo, stamped ‘No. 2 Light Car Patrol’ and dated 26/12/1918, is signed ‘R.C.V. Hamilton Lt., Cmdg. Nos. 2 & 4 LCP’. Presumably No. 4 LCP was also in, or camped near, Aleppo

 

Yet you also show 2 LCP as 2 LACB 

 

Now which is which?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

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Steve,

 

The explanation is simple. I did not write that 2, 3, & 4 LCPs left in Oct 1917. I said that Iain Alexander's post asserting that date seems to be incorrect - presumably a typo - and that the correct date for No. 2 LCP's departure for Palestine was Oct. 1918. [I do not know about 3 & 4 LCPs.] I also pointed out that Russell McGuirk confirms that date. If you read the final para of my first post it should be clear. 

 

I don't understand your suggestion that I "show 2 LCP as 2 LACB". I posted a photo of 2 LACB and the cover of its card. Since the card cover is marked "No. 2 Light Armored Car Battery" that ought to be clear. 

 

I did not post a photo of 2 LCP - that's in Russell's book if you want to see it. I posted the cover of 2 LCP's Christmas card, which Russell did not use in his book. So, those who have the book now have the photo of 2 LCP and can see the cover of the card from which that photo comes.

 

There is no confusion of the two separate units.

 

Ian

 

 

Edited by Ian Morton
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Ian,

 

Thank you.

 

Yes I got the two postings mixed up.

 

I was also hoping that the poster would confirm his posting about the LCP's sent to Palestine, which I can't confirm anywhere?

 

Cheers


S.B

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  • 1 month later...
On ‎19‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 06:45, Ian Morton said:

Steve,

 

The explanation is simple. I did not write that 2, 3, & 4 LCPs left in Oct 1917. I said that Iain Alexander's post asserting that date seems to be incorrect - presumably a typo - and that the correct date for No. 2 LCP's departure for Palestine was Oct. 1918. [I do not know about 3 & 4 LCPs.] I also pointed out that Russell McGuirk confirms that date. If you read the final para of my first post it should be clear. 

 

I don't understand your suggestion that I "show 2 LCP as 2 LACB". I posted a photo of 2 LACB and the cover of its card. Since the card cover is marked "No. 2 Light Armored Car Battery" that ought to be clear. 

 

I did not post a photo of 2 LCP - that's in Russell's book if you want to see it. I posted the cover of 2 LCP's Christmas card, which Russell did not use in his book. So, those who have the book now have the photo of 2 LCP and can see the cover of the card from which that photo comes.

 

There is no confusion of the two separate units.

 

Ian

 

 

Ian. Any chance of a copy of the photo of 2LCP. I don't have access to the book.

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David,

 

I'm pleased that you found the photo of 2 LACB interesting. I certainly found your analysis of the personnel enlightening. I offered quite a number of photos to Russell McGuirk for his book and he used several of them. I am, therefore, rather reluctant to post elsewhere any of those which appear in his book - at least for the time being.

 

Ian

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  • 3 weeks later...

Mate,

 

I think I found where he got that info from.

 

Falls BOW History part 2 shows on the ORbat for Oct 1917 page 662 under MGC

 

2nd, 3rd, 11th and 12th LAMB

1st (Aust) and 7th LCP

 

The problem comes from those mentioned above as being around Oct 1918?

 

shown 2nd LCP, 3rd LCP & 4th LCP transfered from Western Desert to Palestine

11-10-18  2 LAMB (with Rollsroyce AC's) left Sollum for Palestine

23-10-18   2 LAMB arrived at Hama with the 5th Indian Cav Div

 

While may have confused these units I am still see?

 

The same page 668 shown these units Sept 1918

 

11th and 12th LAMB

1st (Aust) and 7th LCP

 

I must have missed see where the 2nd and 3rd LAMB went to between Oct 1917 and Sept 1918?

 

Did they return to the Western desert then returned to Palestine in Oct 1918?

 

Cheers


S.B

 

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Steve,

I do not know the source to which you refer. Nor do I know about the movements of No. 2 Light Armoured Car Battery before October 1918.

 

However, since you cite grounds for thinking that No. 2 LACB left Sollum on October 11th 1918, and since my grandfather’s daily diary of No. 2 Light Car Patrol’s journey from Sollum to Syria, and beyond, confirms that 2 LCP left Sollum on the same day, I think that we may reasonably infer that 2 LCP and 2 LACB left together.  Since Russell McGuirk confirms that 2 LCP was attached to 2 LACB, perhaps joint movement is what we should expect.

 

This might be confirmed by the fact that, if your source is correct, both units joined 5th Cavalry Division at Hama on the same day - 23rd October. Further evidence comes from my grandfather’s diary entry of 24th October in which he refers to “our armoured cars” chasing German lorries: not conclusive identification that the armoured cars were 2 LACB, of course, but if the two units were travelling together it seems to be more than possible.

 

I am not aware of any evidence to suggest that 2 LCP left the Western Desert for Palestine at any time before October 1918, nor does Russell McGuirk refer to such a movement in his book.   

Ian

 

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Interesting thread also running, makes mention of armoured cars and 12th L.A.M.B.

 

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  • 2 years later...

Fascinating thread, albeit a few years old.  I love trawling the GWF 

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  • 1 year later...

Attached is photo of No 1 Section 8 LAMB at Daur in Mesopotamia.  This is from album made by Capt. J. L. Wood, i/c No. 1 section.  Names annotated are (from left to right);

Gunner Edwards, Gunner Fowler (1871 S. ?), Corporal Saunders, Gunner Eccles, Gunner Hall (bit illegible?), Gunner Matthews, Gunner Furlong (96375 P G ?), Gunner Robinson, Sergeant Camm (2293 T V, DCM), Gunner Fitzpatrick, Gunner Dicken (?), Gunner Dodd (2246 H P ?), Gunner Kelly (bit illegible), Gunner Reynolds.

Hope of interest.

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2 hours ago, mcassell said:

Attached is photo of No 1 Section 8 LAMB at Daur in Mesopotamia.  This is from album made by Capt. J. L. Wood, i/c No. 1 section.  Names annotated are (from left to right);

Gunner Edwards, Gunner Fowler (1871 S. ?), Corporal Saunders, Gunner Eccles, Gunner Hall (bit illegible?), Gunner Matthews, Gunner Furlong (96375 P G ?), Gunner Robinson, Sergeant Camm (2293 T V, DCM), Gunner Fitzpatrick, Gunner Dicken (?), Gunner Dodd (2246 H P ?), Gunner Kelly (bit illegible), Gunner Reynolds.

Hope of interest.

Missing the photo!

Sgt. Camm was Thomas Vincent Camm 2293. From Barry in Wales. He was awarded the DCM during the L.A.M.B push up the Euphrates to Anah in late March 1918. At this time 8th L.A.M.B was involved with the rescue of Lt-Col. John Edward Tennant DSO MC OC for the RFC who had been brought down behind enemy lines and captured. On his DCM citation the other man noted possibly awarded MM.

Gunner Furlong  was  Percy George Furlong 96376 later T/WO II  Born  Hyderabad, Deccan, India 11/4/1894. He extended/reenlisted in Tank Corps in 1920 and renumbered 7817802. He was awarded GSM with Iraq clasp.(with 8th L.A.M.B)

Gunner Dodd was Henry Pearce Dodd 2246

GBM_TANK_030_042.jpg

31794_221549-00090.jpg

31825_217834-01841.jpg

30850_A000576-02119.jpg

Edited by david murdoch
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On 14/06/2022 at 14:49, mcassell said:

Sorry about that! Just FYI, Sergeant Camm's DCM and Gunner Furlong's medals are in private collection in UK.

8LAMBGROUP.jpg

Really interesting photo. The cars are ones originally belonging to 8th L.A.B in France. before they combined with 9th L.A.B to become 8th L.A.M.B (cars M^226, M^227,M^228 and M^229) these were only four with this type of turret extension. The 9th L.A.B cars had the full turret extension. 

The chap standing third from the left is in one of my grandfather's own photos. Now identified as Cpl. Saunders.

large mmc - Copy (2).jpg

Edited by david murdoch
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Gunner Dicken is Fred Dicken 38843, from Burnage, Manchester. He has a surviving (burnt) record showing him being 8th L.A.M.B. He joined 7th L.A.B in France 26/1/1917 then transferred to 8th L.A.B 23/7/1917, then went to Mesopotamia with 8th L.A.M.B from Marseilles 20/11/1917.

Gunner Eccles most likely Albert Eccles 176693 Ex King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment Pte. 35917 then transferred to MGC(I) but shows up on the Motors roll as a Gunner.

Corporal Saunders possibly  Albert Saunders 1840 from Taunton, Somerset  He won the DCM 19/9/1918 in an armoured car action at Tireh and gazetted 25/2/1920. It's listed as Egypt but Tireh is in Iran not far from Qazvin where L.A.M.B Brigade were operating at that time. 

Gunner Fitzpatrick  probable Allan Fitzpatrick 69106 MGC(M)

Gunner Kelly likely John Bruce Kelly 2170 later A/Corporal. I have him identified with 14th L.A.M.B

Gunner Fowler is Samuel Fowler 1871. from Hednesford. He enlisted 21/7/1915 and discharged 28/11/1918 with SWB He has pension card showing he had Malaria, Dysentery and GSW to the back. 

Fowler's discharge date would date the photo sometime in 1918. 

Edited by david murdoch
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2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Gunner Dicken is Fred Dicken 38843, from Burnage, Manchester. He has a surviving (burnt) record showing him being 8th L.A.M.B. He joined 7th L.A.B in France 26/1/1917 then transferred to 8th L.A.B 23/7/1917, then went to Mesopotamia with 8th L.A.M.B from Marseilles 20/11/1917.

Gunner Eccles most likely Albert Eccles 176693 Ex King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment Pte. 35917 then transferred to MGC(I) but shows up on the Motors roll as a Gunner.

Corporal Saunders possibly  Albert Saunders 1840 from Taunton, Somerset  He won the DCM 19/9/1918 in an armoured car action at Tireh and gazetted 25/2/1920. It's listed as Egypt but Tireh is in Iran not far from Qazvin where L.A.M.B Brigade were operating at that time. 

This could be Dicken with my Grandfather. He was 8th L.A.B in France also

15230683_10154823715012490_5574854606829508682_n.jpg

Edited by david murdoch
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Checked old notes, had pegged Dicken and Fowler. Will add yr info to roll, thank you. Almost certainly 1840 Corporal Albert Saunders. DCM and pair came up for auction in early 1990s and 'ticked' by me as 8 LAMB tho didnt record exact naming on DCM. Seem to recall Wood album has pics of ACs embarking at Marseilles. Will check.

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12 hours ago, mcassell said:

Do you mean Saunders?

In the photo with my Grandfather? I think the man with the pipe may be Fred Dicken. My grandfather was acting corporal right from August 1915 when he enlisted, then Corporal throughout the war then acting Sergeant and/or Sergeant probably in later 1918 or through 1919. 

Going by the men with MMGS numbers either side of 2000  will be original L.A.B men from France. They enlisted into MMGS and were in an MMG battery in the UK which was then disbanded and moved to armoured cars when MGC took them over. The 8th L.A.M.B cars were all ex RNAS for sure. I think No.14 Armoured Car  Squadron as they were the ones that inherited the 3 pounder Hotchkiss towed guns. 

Regarding personnel, it's clear by the war diaries and specifically the L.A.M.B Brigade diary that the units rarely operated as a complete Battery - more often in sections or even half sections (2 cars) along with sections or cars from other Batteries, for practical reasons to utilise the resources over a wider area and also likely dependant on serviceable vehicles at any given time. So they would be familiar with the men from other Batteries and specifically the "1915 men" who had been together  at Bisley training on motorbikes first. 14th L.A.M.B has a higher number of MMGS hands as they mobilised directly from UK to Mesopotamia. The others having served elsewhere had more of a turnover and show up more later MGC(M) men. 

Edited by david murdoch
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@mcassell. I'd be really grateful if you could post what you have relating to 8th L.A.M.B. I have their movements from the unit war diary and the L.A.M.B brigade war diary. That gives a lot of the officer turnover 1918/1919. I know from  stories he told my mother, I've confirmed my grandfather was at Anah in late March 1918 and he indeed served under Captain Michael C H Bowes-Lyon. He was also involved in an incident where L.A.M.B cars took a Turkish fort, which had been abandoned leaving only wounded and Turkish medical personnel. My grandfather was the senior rank and the Turkish medical officer surrendered his sword to him. Apparently he had this sword but it ended up at the bottom of the English Channel with a lot of other things - they threw overboard rather than have them confiscated or pay "duty" on them. He had a Turkish officer's watch which my mother remembered right through to WW2. Big break for me identifying Cpl. Saunders after all these years! I have original negatives of some of his photos, and also negative taken from German wireless station. This incident in noted in both 8th and 14th L.A.M.B diaries as they were operating together. 

1918-03-28 Anah, Mesopotamia AustRRAC4.jpg

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Edited by david murdoch
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Do you have a copy of this one amongst  the photo album? Mine is a tiny print - probably a contact print direct from negative. Cpl. Saunders with arms folded, my grandfather is 3rd from left with RFC maternity jacket, lad on the far right fooling around with his hat on sideways. Both the car on the right appears to have NAP solid tyres. The one under the tarp probably has the same turret extension. Pretty sure Saunders is this man 

Albert Saunders
1894–1976
BIRTH 16 SEP 1894 • North Curry, Somerset

DEATH 11 MAR 1976 • Taunton, Somerset, England.

On 1911 census he was 16 and an assistant in a bicycle shop and 1939 register Secretary  in a motor garage (Ramsgate, Kent) along with his son Robert born April 1920. Saunders was discharged 20th April 1919. He had another son Albert John  born September 1915.

large mmc.jpg

Edited by david murdoch
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This shows four cars  - which I'd previously identified as belonging to 8th L.A.M.B and being the four original 8th L.A.B cars from France. I'd wondered if they had taken the turret extensions off  back off as not seen elsewhere in photos of armoured cars in Mesopotamia. They had obviously removed the Uralite cladding and additional armour added in France to save weight, as the war diaries from France show they were on the limit for weight and suffering mechanical issues. At one point they were even considering replacing the rear axles with a heavier truck axle! The cars with the full turret extension show up in later Tank Corps service, but until now pictures of these one with the turret hatch extension are very rare.. Again this one is from a tiny print  - probably a contact off the negative. Shows four officers. The nearest car appears to be camouflage painted. There was an order issued in the Brigade war diary to do this. 

20170518_112849.jpg

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