Seadog Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Opinions vary, mine is that is was a pointless, grotesque and meaningless piece of so-called "art" whilst the "ghost soldiers" who appeared at locations without any pre-warning were magnificent and in the best ad-speak reached those parts that others could not reach, including the corpses. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Sticking by my post of about 6 weeks ago, I find the whole thing very strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete-c Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 Speaking as one who actually went along to see this installation / display - call it what you like - in Northernhay Gardens, unlike, it would seem, the majority of people who have posted on this thread - I can only say that I was truly moved. To see this number of representative figures in one relatively small area, on a beautiful summers day, does indeed bring home the dreadful waste of man-power and the utter futility of warfare. I found it very hard indeed to keep my composure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 Does anyone know if the artist dealt with representations of the hundreds of men who died of wounds suffered on 1st July 1916 but died afterwards? Do they not warrant commemoration? Or those who were killed on 2nd July 1916? etc. or those killed in the other theatres of war.on 1st July 1916..in a corner of another foreign field? This media obsession with 1st July 1916 at the Somme is something that largely blinds the British public to the rest of the war and the several hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of casualties. Why does someone who died on the Somme on this day deserve to be commemorated more than someone on any other day? Simply because they died in large numbers? Rfn 3535 Faqir Muhammad of the 104th Wellesley's Rifles died on 1st July 1916 in squalid conditions in a Turkish POW camp. He, and 30 other members of the Indian Army made the ultimate sacrifice on the 1st July 1916. There are no shrouded figures for these men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 Ignoring the appalling "artworks" for a moment it is not just the media that is obsessed with 1/7/16 for this forum seems to follow that pattern. Dreadful as it most certainly was there were about (depends on who you believe) 125,000 allied dead during the whole battle so perhaps the "artist" should get cracking of the additional 106,000 "works of art". Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 I wouldn't buy one myself but I can see that a representation of each of the men who died on that day on the Somme has a great visual impact - in the same way that the poppies at the ToL did - and can help people see the men as individuals rather than just a statistic. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 9 hours ago, pete-c said: Speaking as one who actually went along to see this installation / display - call it what you like - in Northernhay Gardens, unlike, it would seem, the majority of people who have posted on this thread - I can only say that I was truly moved. To see this number of representative figures in one relatively small area, on a beautiful summers day, does indeed bring home the dreadful waste of man-power and the utter futility of warfare. I found it very hard indeed to keep my composure. As I mentioned earlier, my daughter's experience on seeing them (sorry I got the location wrong: I don't know Exeter that well) and the photos she sent me amended my opinion. I think Mr Drill's comment in post 29, about the scale of the numbers of figurines, is probably the key. One looks a bit naff but the numbers of display make it more immediate. I'm happy to change my opinion on this. While I take martin's point about Rfn 3535 Faqir Muhammad of the 104th Wellesley's Rifles, the emphasis on all this is the Somme (for better or worse), and these shrouded figures work on their own level. I saw the poppies at the Tower; I wish I'd been able to see these figures too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cullbaggie Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 12 hours ago, pete-c said: Speaking as one who actually went along to see this installation / display - call it what you like - in Northernhay Gardens, unlike, it would seem, the majority of people who have posted on this thread - I can only say that I was truly moved. To see this number of representative figures in one relatively small area, on a beautiful summers day, does indeed bring home the dreadful waste of man-power and the utter futility of warfare. I found it very hard indeed to keep my composure. i totally agree with you, i went along on Sunday and was moved to see how many 19,240 actually looks like when laid out on the grass. i also spoke to a few of my friends and encouraged them to visit - all could not believe the number of figures (these are from people with no interest in ww1) so i think they did what they intended to do - to show the waste of life on that dreadful day well done to Exeter for hosting this art project, which may not appeal to everyone, but will hopefully keep alive the memories and promote new interest from people who have had no interest until now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 18 minutes ago, cullbaggie said: well done to Exeter for hosting this art project, which may not appeal to everyone, but will hopefully keep alive the memories and promote new interest from people who have had no interest until now But what memories? If the only memory people have of the Somme is 19240 dead soldiers then they haven't learned anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete-c Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 1 hour ago, Gareth Davies said: But what memories? If the only memory people have of the Somme is 19240 dead soldiers then they haven't learned anything. When I went along I witnessed many groups of school children. One would like to think that they are studying WW1 as part of their overall history studies - not just the Somme - the whole awful thing, from start to finish. If the youngsters who visited Exeter this week can hold on to the memory of their visit, and who knows, even go on to study history in more depth as they get older, then surely that can only be a good thing. Only by getting more young people interested in modern history can we have any hope of the next few generations of our politicians being more attuned to history - and how THEY never seem to learn from it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertDubrecht Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 On 5/24/2016 at 13:09, RaySearching said: I hope not Could not agree more Regards Ray but it was at least talked about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertDubrecht Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 51 minutes ago, pete-c said: When I went along I witnessed many groups of school children. One would like to think that they are studying WW1 as part of their overall history studies - not just the Somme - the whole awful thing, from start to finish. If the youngsters who visited Exeter this week can hold on to the memory of their visit, and who knows, even go on to study history in more depth as they get older, then surely that can only be a good thing. Only by getting more young people interested in modern history can we have any hope of the next few generations of our politicians being more attuned to history - and how THEY never seem to learn from it! i think it was wonderfull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vista52 Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 My Grandmother had a room in her house in London that was part parlor/small library/sun room. When I was around 11 or 12 (early 1960's) I discovered in there a large thick encyclopedia which had been published in 1926. It became regular reading when I went to visit. Reading through it you would come upon headings such as, Guillemont...A small village in Northern France and scene of heavy fighting in the Great War....... or Ovilliers...A small village in Northern France and scene of heavy fighting in the Great War....... The number of casualties quoted were unimaginable to me. How I would think of it would be by comparing it to my School enrollment which was always around 500 for all the years I was there. So when I read of 1st July, I would think of 40 times all the Boys sat at Assembly in the morning. I don't remember if I ever shared my thoughts with anyone else, probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cullbaggie Posted 8 July , 2016 Share Posted 8 July , 2016 22 hours ago, pete-c said: When I went along I witnessed many groups of school children. One would like to think that they are studying WW1 as part of their overall history studies - not just the Somme - the whole awful thing, from start to finish. If the youngsters who visited Exeter this week can hold on to the memory of their visit, and who knows, even go on to study history in more depth as they get older, then surely that can only be a good thing. Only by getting more young people interested in modern history can we have any hope of the next few generations of our politicians being more attuned to history - and how THEY never seem to learn from it! exactly the point i was trying to make! start the mind young to History and it will grow and hopefully never forget the suffering from ww1 or any other war. we all started at some point - wether it was a family member we were tracing or just something small that stirred an interest, it started to the point we are at now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 8 July , 2016 Share Posted 8 July , 2016 I note the 'Schools' part of the website is adjacent to the 'Shop' where one is invited to 'Add to Cart' various shrouded miniature cadavers; named and framed for £99 or un-named and framed for £59 or simply unframed for £29...all at simply outrageous cost for an Action Man wrapped in a piece of linen. I am not sure how educational this is. Surely a sea of replica Dead Man's Pennies would have at least been far more informative by way of including all their names and units. The fact that a large percentage of First Day Somme fatalities had no known grave also undermines the historical integrity of the project. The tragedy of the 'missing' is completely lost in this art installation as it implicitly defines all fatalities in a tangible medium. The reality was very far from this imagined symbolism. Empty coffins might have been more apt. If the TofL experience is anything to go by, the financial beneficiaries need to be fully transparent and fully disclosed. I can't see the financials of this and wonder if this is altruistic or whether this is yet another way of making money from the commemoration of the Great War. Doubtless time will tell. To be clear, the usual mantra of these projects is to donate **ahem** 'profits' to these great causes, thereby engendering good feeling and justification. More hand-wringing. The trouble with this is that this approach has been abused on a breathtaking level within the ill-regulated world of British charities. The Kids' Company being one of the most recent high profile, Govt sponsored calamities. Anyone with the slightest understanding of accountancy will know immediately that 'profit' is conceptual, and 'cost' can be vastly and conveniently inflated and incidentally and conveniently diverting £££ away from the bottom line. To be clear I have no idea about the charitable integrity or, to be more pertinent, the percentage financial donation of this project for the simple reason that no details are provided. This in itself is odd. Without full transparency I retain a very deep cynicism for these hand-wringing commemorations that invite the population (and schoolchildren) to 'donate' or 'Add to Cart' their chosen miniature cadaver. While the art installation might have some artistic merit, the marketing is pretty tasteless. I would invite the sponsors of this project to disclose the financials, as every charity should. ...then we can make informed decisions. What exactly is the profit from each shrouded figure and how is that calculated? MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 8 July , 2016 Share Posted 8 July , 2016 Well said MG My thoughts exactly As the artist with his millions made laughed all the way to the bank Regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete-c Posted 9 July , 2016 Share Posted 9 July , 2016 9 hours ago, QGE said: I am not sure how educational this is. Without full transparency I retain a very deep cynicism for these hand-wringing commemorations that invite the population (and schoolchildren) to 'donate' or 'Add to Cart' their chosen miniature cadaver. It is pretty tasteless. MG As far as the educational aspect of the display goes, I stick with what I have already said. I am not going to comment on anything that might be viewed online because I haven't seen it. I went along, in person, with no preconceptions at all. I certainly wasn't aware of any hard sell at the event and I wasn't aware that the purchasing of a figure - which by the way are not 'action men' - was an option. The money I chose to 'donate' went into a bucket held by one of the many SSAFA representatives, which of course IF one were cynical, may well have been emptied straight into pocket of the artist - thus of course adding to his millions! Cynicism was the last thing on my mind when viewing these figures laid out on the grass. If people choose to make decisions about such things without actually visiting and seeing them in person, well, that is up to them. Finally - and this is my last comment on this subject - tasteless, is something it certainly was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 9 July , 2016 Share Posted 9 July , 2016 2 hours ago, pete-c said: As far as the educational aspect of the display goes, I stick with what I have already said. I am not going to comment on anything that might be viewed online because I haven't seen it. I went along, in person, with no preconceptions at all. I certainly wasn't aware of any hard sell at the event and I wasn't aware that the purchasing of a figure - which by the way are not 'action men' - was an option. The money I chose to 'donate' went into a bucket held by one of the many SSAFA representatives, which of course IF one were cynical, may well have been emptied straight into pocket of the artist - thus of course adding to his millions! Cynicism was the last thing on my mind when viewing these figures laid out on the grass. If people choose to make decisions about such things without actually visiting and seeing them in person, well, that is up to them. Finally - and this is my last comment on this subject - tasteless, is something it certainly was not. As I said I am sure the art installation has some artistic merit. For anyone who has not seen it there is some aerial film footage from ITV News here click. I simply find the website's invite to "add to cart" a representation of a dead man to be tasteless. The idea that the sacrifice of each of these men can be symbolised by the purchase of a £29 doll in an act of commemoration does not quite do it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 9 July , 2016 Share Posted 9 July , 2016 But there is no context. 19240 bodies isn't the only story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 9 July , 2016 Share Posted 9 July , 2016 I haven't seen the actual installation therefore cannot comment on the overall impact. I do however maintain my view that it all feels a bit wrong. Anyone wishing to commemorate the lost, injured or captured only has to visit the scene, stand on a piece of high ground and use their imagination as to what the day was really like, upon returning to their accommodation they will pass the countless reminders of the true horror. I don't feel that a doll wrapped in cloth achieves anything though it would be interesting to see by how much his bank account has swelled. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilH Posted 9 July , 2016 Share Posted 9 July , 2016 I haven't seen it personally and always felt it seemed rather tacky but I've seen various comments from folk that have seenit and the concenus appeared to be that it was very moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietro Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 As a slight hijacking of this thread, but still part of Artists' response to the Great War, I saw a different version of the installation of this work just last week: http://melikohanian.com/work/142 The 'canary girls' were life size, I found it very moving as a sensitive statement on part of our history. The figures and shells were cast with careful fine detail, I felt I was standing right beside each person as they worked on the munitions. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 August , 2016 Share Posted 4 August , 2016 I could buy the 'Shroud of the Somme' figure of my great-uncle Norman Farnhill for £99.00. Maybe not. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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