CAP BADGE MAKERS MARKS - GAUNT LONDON

[DrB]

Someone very much smarter than I wrote an article on this several years ago and it made sense to me. Here is the way I look at badges.

Genuine: 'nuff said

Restrike: Just that. It probably won't fool a "smart" shopper, but it will get the novice every time. Sometimes even the slider is marked. This are not really meant to pass as the real thing, but many new to collecting will buy them in good faith. (Wanna buy a Guards MG badge?)

Forgery: This is the one we can stumble over. They are artificially aged, properly marked, etc and are offered as the "real thing." (and most of them do look genuine) Medals are done the same way.

A lot of German WWII junk is sold this way as well. Pity the 19 year old SS lover. (Tsk, tsk...)

The people who offer this stuff should be summarily shot.

Anyway, that is the Barton classification.

DrB

[Jim Maclean]

Thanks Bert for the picture of a known good maker marked badge. That's sort of info that is invaluable in helping to make a decision. Must get all my 'maybes' out and check them now.

[Graeme Fisher]

Please also be aware of Marples & Beasley sliders being used on restrikes. I recent saw an economy 21st Lancers and a Fife & Forfar yeomanry QC with the same imperfect stamping on the lower lettering.

Keep the discussion going please.

Keith

Marples and Beasley. They're the ones. Avoid like the plague (or plaque).

Manufactured in Lye, West Midlands in the 1980s before the company went under.

Whoever made these spent an awful lot of time making them look genuine. The quality of materials used in the examples i've rejected is fabulous!

Dirt and wear in abundance, nice thick stampings in proper gilding metal and nickel, brazed not soldered sliders.

Charlatans!

Graeme

[Guest Bert]

Marples & Beasley: I have an excellent KRRC cap badge with their marking on the slider. The badge is beautifully made, finished in genuine (black) lacquer, but it has only minor wear to the high points, no dirt-sweat-wool fluff-residue, and no dings or scratches. Probably a restrike, but I keep it to remind me just how good some of the reproductions are.

[7t2ndswinger]

This is the 21st Lancers WW1 Economy restrike. Note how faint the stamping is especially the 'L' in Beasley. I've noticed this fault in every badge of theirs which I consider to be a restrike. I think I have a genuine M & B badge somewhere in my collection which I'll try to post another time.

[max7474]

All,

No makers mark but would value opinion. It is gilding metal with 2 lugs. I have seen a lot of copies with the Gaunt London slider on them although they are in a softer metal. Any thoughts?

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

From the Lettering "HAWKE" & "STEADFAST" it has the appearance of a Re~Strike or Copy,It Looks in the JPG to be too Flat and "Edgy";The Brass is too Yellow,Gilding Metal is Redder in appearance;Not one I would go for,IMO

There is Polish residue,both back & front {A Common "Ageing" practice~Bung on some Brasso!},but no evidence of Polished "Wear" over a period of time

[7t2ndswinger]

I don't think that maker marks were as prolific up until the introduction of Staybrite as the present purveyors of maker marked badges would have us believe. I've looked at all my WW1 economy issues and none has a maker mark.

Unfortunately, despite 90% of my economy badges also being unbranded (like most in my collection I avoid most Gaunt, but will grab anything by FN, Buttons Ltd, Firmin & ENGLAN[ plus a few others) they all appear to have the 1970's style of slider, same dimensions exactly as the Gaunt one we've been discussing.

As a footnote to the above, it's funny how many ENGLAN[ badges you see in the junk boxes labelled as restrikes. Does anybody have any info on this manufacturer and their funny shaped sliders ?

Apologies for the 21st Lancers Marples & Beasley photo not appearing earlier , I'm new to this.

[harribobs]

just to add to the fun

here's my Hawke badge, quite different, it does have a plaque (no plague thank god) but it's corroded and i'm not willing to clean it

[harribobs]

and, of course, the rear

the flash photograhy makes it look a lot cleaner than it is ( front and back)

[kingsman64]

The very first restrikes of English cap badges that I ever saw, were at the old Royal Lancaster arms fair, in 1972. By now these early strikes (done when the dies were still crisp), with their brazed lugs, or good, thick sliders, are very difficult to distinguish from genuine badges.

The only J. R. Gaunt marking on the slider of a Great War badge that I am completely certain about, is on the Prince Albert’s (Somersetshire Light Infantry) cap badge worn by my wife's grandfather. This was on his trench cap, which I was given (along with the rest of his kit) in the late sixties. Here is a (not very good) photograph of the marking:

The first restrike I ever came across was also in the 1970's however it was already over 60 years old!

In the early 1900's a very shrewd Mr. Fox aquired all the dies for the pre territorial glengarry badges @ 100 different ones and began making restrike badges in Southend Essex he made thousands which he sold for pennies. The lugs on these badges are always East - West whereas a lot of the genuine (but not all) glengarry badges are lugged North - South. They tend to be a more yellow buttery colour as well if made of brass, the white metal ones are very good, however the passage of time has aged some of these very well. They were of course made within a few years of the originals on the very same equipment and I know of two well respected badge collectors who have Fox restrikes prominently displayed in the centre of their collections. One knows, the other pretends he doesn't!

[max7474]

Following on from the Gaunt lettering size - here are 3 badges with different Gaunt lettering. 2 have large lettering with no full stop in the title (but with differnt depth to the lettering) and the third has the common very small writing that you see in the 1970s restrikes. The ordnance badge is of the 1949-53 pattern and looks to be a genuine badge as it has all the right wear, patina etc about it. All the comments made by those more learned by me would seem to suggest that the small case with the full stop in after the name are best avoided as they were made after Gaunt sold off their dies and equipment in the 1970s.

[max7474]

and, of course, the rear

the flash photograhy makes it look a lot cleaner than it is ( front and back)

Many thanks.

There is a noticeable differnec to the shape of the beak and head in particular.

[birkettm]

Ive got to say the only two badges ive ever bought with JR Gaunt written down the slider was one to the DLI and one to RND Hawke Btn. They both turned out to be later restrikes....

[7t2ndswinger]

The first restrike I ever came across was also in the 1970's however it was already over 60 years old!

In the early 1900's a very shrewd Mr. Fox aquired all the dies for the pre territorial glengarry badges @ 100 different ones and began making restrike badges in Southend Essex he made thousands which he sold for pennies.

The Fox restikes are notorious for badge collectors. Gaylor mentions them in his book but your information regarding the positioning of the lugs is very useful.

Thanks.

Keith

k

[7t2ndswinger]

Following on from the Gaunt lettering size - here are 3 badges with different Gaunt lettering. 2 have large lettering with no full stop in the title (but with differnt depth to the lettering) and the third has the common very small writing that you see in the 1970s restrikes. The ordnance badge is of the 1949-53 pattern and looks to be a genuine badge as it has all the right wear, patina etc about it. All the comments made by those more learned by me would seem to suggest that the small case with the full stop in after the name are best avoided as they were made after Gaunt sold off their dies and equipment in the 1970s.

The dabate goes on !!!! Good!!

Just how many different styles of Gaunt brandings are there??

Regarding the three examples from Max, I propose we now agree that those with the small lettering and the full stop as suggested by Max in his quote can now safely be discounted as restrikes? I'd love to know from where this die came about though!!

As for the three examples photographed up until now as I was fairly content with the larger type Gaunt London branding but I find it hard believe that the same brand was used on a pre-1920's 17th London and a 1949-55 ROAC. Also the syle seems very similar to the Gaunt B'Ham stamp.

I have another style whch falls between the two on an economy Royal Irish Fusiliers, which I'll do my best to post shortly.

Keep it going !

Keith

[Graeme Fisher]

Doesn't it strike you as curious that nobody from Gaunts has stepped forward in this debate? Not specifically THIS one on the forum, but in every badge collecting circle in the land.

You'd think someone would want to defend the quality of their workmanship.

Graeme

[7t2ndswinger]

Doesn't it strike you as curious that nobody from Gaunts has stepped forward in this debate? Not specifically THIS one on the forum, but in every badge collecting circle in the land.

You'd think someone would want to defend the quality of their workmanship.

Graeme

It certainly would answer a lot of questions if they did. I don't think for one moment anyone is pointing the finger at them for the restrikes as they appear to have been made after they sold off their dies, but I'd like to know:

a) What were their brandings?

When was each one used and where ?

c) When did they cease to exist and become a part of Firmin?

Not much to ask is it ?

Keith

[7t2ndswinger]

Following on from an earlier post, here's the Dorsetshire Gaunt produced badge and without doubt a genuine example. Apologies for the delay.

Keith

[N.S.Regt.]

The 25th Battalion C.E.F. had a good portion of their OR's badges and collars made by Gaunt. They all have the little tag like harribobs Hawke badge Gaunt also made the C/25 collars which have the firms logo impressed on the back. I have never seen the use of a slider with any 25th badge they are allways lugged.

Regards

N.S.Regt.

[7t2ndswinger]

An interesting thought. I have a number of badges that I inherited and know to be genuine that if I had seen in a shop would have not touched as they are so pristine.

Just to labour the point a bit further, here's a badge I bought today of the 5th London post WW1 which if it hadn't been for the branding I wouldn't have touched with a barge pole as it looks so new. The maker as I hope you can see....JRGaunt London , no full stop and small cramped lettering. Have we now come a full circle here!?!!

Keith

[Jim Maclean]

Here's a Gaunt Birmingham mark. Compared to the known good London mark I think this looks pretty good. My concern is the badge that it's on - 1st Volunteer Battalion of the D.C.L.I. I know it's not impossible for a badge of that vintage to have a slider but I do treat them with a good deal of suspicion.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Jim

[7t2ndswinger]

Here's a Gaunt Birmingham mark. Compared to the known good London mark I think this looks pretty good. My concern is the badge that it's on - 1st Volunteer Battalion of the D.C.L.I. I know it's not impossible for a badge of that vintage to have a slider but I do treat them with a good deal of suspicion.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Jim

Thanks for posting this one Jim as it's really opened another can of worms and not one I can say I've been particualarly looking forward to seeing!

Like Max in an earlier posting I was in agreement that the B'Ham sliders were OK on (mainly Territorial & Yeomanry) badges from units and regiments that still existed into the 1960's or 70's whenever Gaunt supposedly moved their production to Birmingham. This is the first instance of an older badge bearing this mark that I'm aware of and may now change my opinion. But.......................

In his book "Discovering British Military Badges & Buttons" (R.J. Wilkinson-Latham)

on page 85 states the following:

...."some of the London makers listed had works in Birmingham, but only their London address appeared on their wares."

Then amongst those listed:

J.R. Gaunt and Sons, Ltd 1900-1994

J.R. Gaunt & Sons, London, -1982(see Firmin) Also at Birmingham 1898-1994

Looking through my collection I can only find one instance of a pre-1960's badge with this brand on a 7th (Robin Hoods) Foresters KC but this unit lasted into the QC era and the Gaunt 'move'.

I also have a couple of DoCLI 1st VB badges, one with the oval plaque and the other with the scroll but both with unbranded sliders of identical style and size to yours (ie typical Gaunt sliders).

Any more information will be greatly appreciated.

Keith

[7t2ndswinger]

As promised in an earlier posting, here's a picture of an economy Royal Irish Fusiliers with yet another style of Gaunt branding, unlike any of the others shown and without a location of manufacture. Has anyone seen this before ?

Keith

[Jim Maclean]

Fasten your seatbelt Keith.

I haven't seen that mark before and don't like it at all. It looks like it's been done with an engineer's printing set and a bad one at that. Look at the 'A' how it is larger than the other letters and extends above the the others. Same goes for the 'N' in SON except that it extends below the line and is different to the 'N' in GAUNT. Also the depth varies, the 'U' is a very light strike. Everything is also off centre. There also seems to be a ghost of a 'J' behind the 'G'.

Do the bright bits that I can see have a crystalline surface? I have an Inniskilling Fus. badge marked with the full stop trade mark that's got this surface effect on the back.

Jim