max7474 Posted 23 November , 2004 Share Posted 23 November , 2004 I have seen a lot of WW1 badges for sale with Gaunt London sliders in small case. Some of these are on 1916 all brass economy badges which dates then to pre 1919. Now I know Gaunt moved production to B'ham in the 1960s and this is the Gaunt makers mark that is found on their anodised badges and I have seen a couple of brass Yeomanry badges with them who were still around in the 1960s. I am fairly happy with the Firmin badges I have but the amount of Gaunt badges about would suggest a lot of forgeries using this mark.The question is was the Gaunt London ever a genuine mark or is it the mark of forgeries? Views please. As an aside I have a large collection of genuine WW2 badges all of which were collected by my grandfather in the 1940s and only one of over 100 has a maker's mark and that is FN Bham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 23 November , 2004 Share Posted 23 November , 2004 My view - later strikes. Please note the words I use before someone goes for the jugular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Maclean Posted 23 November , 2004 Share Posted 23 November , 2004 I think your last sentence speaks volumes. I don't think that maker marks were as prolific up until the introduction of Staybrite as the present purveyors of maker marked badges would have us believe. I've looked at all my WW1 economy issues and none has a maker mark. I always treat the Gaunt mark on sliders on pre Staybrite badges with the utmost suspicion bordering on contempt. Just as I do the ebay sellers passing this garbage off. You are in a good position having a collection amassed by your grandfather. Study the backs of these badges. Thats where the truth lies. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Maclean Posted 23 November , 2004 Share Posted 23 November , 2004 My view - later strikes. Please note the words I use before someone goes for the jugular If you won't say it I will.................FAKES Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 23 November , 2004 Share Posted 23 November , 2004 Jim, I was being charitable Although I have in recent years seen more cap badges to the Fife & Fofar Yeo than there men who ever served with the unit!! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Maclean Posted 23 November , 2004 Share Posted 23 November , 2004 Maybe they were expecting a large influx and just overordered Same way the SAS selection got easier. On a serious note though, I think what is happening with badges on ebay is at the least bordering on the criminal. It's small time fraud on a big scale. I can think of less than a handfull of reputable dealers, and they start the auction at what the badge is worth. No bargains from those that know. Also use the feedback, not neg or pos, but look at what they sell. If it's always military badges find out why. I can only think of one lady that does this that sells 100% good stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 23 November , 2004 Share Posted 23 November , 2004 I've certainly seen original RND badges ( or what I consider original) with a small plague marked J R Gaunt on the rear, as for sliders I have definetly seen fakes stamped gaunt, so yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice As for there being a actual value for any ebay item, the value is what the purchaser is happy to pay, that will be different for everyone, that's what makes ebay interesting (btw i thought gaunt moved to birmingham in the 70's) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Fisher Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 I agree with Harribobs' comments. Apart fom having the plague, of course.... The Gaunt plaques are, I feel, quite genuine. However, there is a school of thought that declares the stamping of a slider to be the mark of a genuine badge. I have seen, and probably mentioned in another post ages ago, three identical Yeomanry badges, distressed to appear old (i.e. polished to erase the crispness of the badge, nicely grubby as tho' they'd lived in someone's drawer for fifty years) to the point that I almost bought one... But then, three of them? Identical wear? Marked sliders? NO! Without digging through piles of stuff, I can't remember the name; something like Lambert and Butler Birmingham. Made circa 1989 half a mile away from my house, just before the company folded. A blatant attempt to make some money. A maker's name is not a guarantee of an original badge, least of all the Gaunt stamp. There used to be a dealer in restruck badges (passed off as genuine, at least pricewise) at the militaria fairs at the Motorcycle Museum in Birmingham (pre-fire) whose stock was 40% stamped sliders. He never saw my money! Caveat Emptor. Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 These Badges have been around since the 1970s when the Gaunt Business was sold off & all their Dies & Impressing Equipement was Bought up & Re Strike Badges began to appear in Considerable Numbers,Causing Utter Paranoia amongst the then Badge Collecting Community,Far More Badges appeared than were ever Struck for official Issue,especially to the Scarcer Irish & Cavalry Regiments,Smaller Units,RND,Etc;Consequently,Collectors in General Have avoided Those Badges with Gaunt Impressed on the slider like the plague,unfortunately many of those Badges have now accquired a natural Patina of 30 odd years of existence,so you have to be very Careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 I agree with Harribobs' comments. Apart fom having the plague, of course.... ooohhh! it's bloody difficult getting your company name on those microbes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 24 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2004 OK. So we all agree that there are lots of copies about with the Guant London stamp on the slider. The Gaunt plaques are genuine but were there ever Gaunt london sliders or are they a forgers invention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Sorry but in my experience the presence of a Gaunt label on a badge is not ( on its own ) a guarantee of its authenticity. Peter Brydon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 OK. So we all agree that there are lots of copies about with the Guant London stamp on the slider. The Gaunt plaques are genuine but were there ever Gaunt london sliders or are they a forgers invention? They are in effect not "Forged" asthe Copyright [ie the Name "Gaunt"}was sold to the New Manufacturer,along with the Dies,Etc,They are however Re strikes from original dies,so not Historically contemporary,In effect putting the Name on them has Clarified their lack of Provenance,by alerting those who see them as to their recent manufacture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 The very first restrikes of English cap badges that I ever saw, were at the old Royal Lancaster arms fair, in 1972. By now these early strikes (done when the dies were still crisp), with their brazed lugs, or good, thick sliders, are very difficult to distinguish from genuine badges. The only J. R. Gaunt marking on the slider of a Great War badge that I am completely certain about, is on the Prince Albert’s (Somersetshire Light Infantry) cap badge worn by my wife's grandfather. This was on his trench cap, which I was given (along with the rest of his kit) in the late sixties. Here is a (not very good) photograph of the marking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 And here is a (again, not very good) photograph of the common, or garden variety J. R. Gaunt marking, on the slider of a restrike DCLI cap badge that I recently examined: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 The very first restrikes of English cap badges that I ever saw, were at the old Royal Lancaster arms fair, in 1972. By now these early strikes (done when the dies were still crisp), with their brazed lugs, or good, thick sliders, are very difficult to distinguish from genuine badges. The only J. R. Gaunt marking on the slider of a Great War badge that I am completely certain about, is on the Prince Albert’s (Somersetshire Light Infantry) cap badge worn by my wife's grandfather. This was on his trench cap, which I was given (along with the rest of his kit) in the late sixties. Here is a (not very good) photograph of the marking: excellent pictures Bert, looking at the sliders just how different are they? is it just the thickness? chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 harribobs The slider on the genuine badge is quite thick, and can not be bent with ordinary finger pressure. Sweat corroded it greatly, and has eaten away nearly eighty-five percent of the attachment to the badge, yet it is still firmly in place. The slider on the restrike is thinner, of a softer brass, and can be easily bent betwixt thumb and forefinger. Under a ten-power loupe the stamping on the genuine badge is deeper and heavier, the letters are somewhat squarer. and there is no full stop after 'Gaunt'. All in all, I must agree with some of the other gentlemen who have commented on this topic - J. R. Gaunt markings on sliders ring alarm bells. Here is a photograph of a genuine J. R. Gaunt plaque on a New Zealand cap badge (14th South Otago Rifles): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 25 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2004 The dating of the Gaunt B'Ham - London change started my mind thinking and having checked my staybrite collection it is clear that they must have moved production from at least 1960 as I have a lot of 1958-68 Brigade badges with Gaunt B'ham sliders and a couple such as 23rd london Regt which stopped being made in 1960-1. As an aside all my pre 58 infantry badges with Gaunt marks are London rather than B'ham (even if they were made for the TA then they stopped wearing them in 1968 anyway). My point is the badges prodcution shifted from London to Bham over a period of years in the 1960s and not 70s. Interestingly in my collection all are branded, less half a dozen of the earliest types such as K/C Ulster Rifles, which have plain sliders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 harribobs The slider on the genuine badge is quite thick, and can not be bent with ordinary finger pressure. Sweat corroded it greatly, and has eaten away nearly eighty-five percent of the attachment to the badge, yet it is still firmly in place. The slider on the restrike is thinner, of a softer brass, and can be easily bent betwixt thumb and forefinger. Under a ten-power loupe the stamping on the genuine badge is deeper and heavier, the letters are somewhat squarer. and there is no full stop after 'Gaunt'. All in all, I must agree with some of the other gentlemen who have commented on this topic - J. R. Gaunt markings on sliders ring alarm bells. Here is a photograph of a genuine J. R. Gaunt plaque on a New Zealand cap badge (14th South Otago Rifles): Bert and Max thanks both of you , the information is much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 On a serious note though, I think what is happening with badges on ebay is at the least bordering on the criminal. It's small time fraud on a big scale. I can think of less than a handfull of reputable dealers, and they start the auction at what the badge is worth. No bargains from those that know. Jim, I agree with your sentiment but as some of these go for around for the £5 mark, what can people expect - you cannot buy a packet of 20 ciggies for that much these days, or so I have been told. Like Bert I have a cap badge in my possession that would not necessarily pass muster but came from a relative. Not Gaunt marked though. Cap badges are a fascinating subject perhaps we should a genuine or fake competition on the forum? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 25 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2004 An interesting thought. I have a number of badges that I inherited and know to be genuine that if I had seen in a shop would have not touched as they are so pristine. I have a few that I would value an opinion on as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 Post them and let see if anyone can agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 Just to throw a spanner in the works, I've this week obtained a Dorsetshire Regiment badge with all the trappings of a genuine badge such as sweat/blow holes but with a completely different Gaunt branding on the slider in that the London is underneath the Gaunt name. A photo will follow. When I first showed an interest in getting to the bottom of the Gaunt restrike business I asked a fellow collector if he had any genuine Gaunt branded badges in his collection. The example he sent me was the Somerset Light Infantry as posted earlier so I would suggest usuing this as a marker for the time being. Please also be aware of Marples & Beasley sliders being used on restrikes. I recent saw an economy 21st Lancers and a Fife & Forfar yeomanry QC with the same imperfect stamping on the lower lettering. Keep the discussion going please. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 Post them and let see if anyone can agree that would be a first! Please also be aware of Marples & Beasley sliders being used on restrikes. I recent saw an economy 21st Lancers and a Fife & Forfar yeomanry QC with the same imperfect stamping on the lower lettering what imperfect stamping Keith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 Post them and let see if anyone can agree that would be a first! Now then, now then I can remember at least 2 occasions when this has happened ( ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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