7t2ndswinger Posted 9 December , 2004 Share Posted 9 December , 2004 Fasten your seatbelt Keith. I haven't seen that mark before and don't like it at all. It looks like it's been done with an engineer's printing set and a bad one at that. Look at the 'A' how it is larger than the other letters and extends above the the others. Same goes for the 'N' in SON except that it extends below the line and is different to the 'N' in GAUNT. Also the depth varies, the 'U' is a very light strike. Everything is also off centre. There also seems to be a ghost of a 'J' behind the 'G'. Do the bright bits that I can see have a crystalline surface? I have an Inniskilling Fus. badge marked with the full stop trade mark that's got this surface effect on the back. Jim Hi Jim, It's OK, I can take the knocks, you have to in this interst/hobby. I occasionally wake up screaming wondering what I've wasted the housekeeping money on this week but in this case it didn't cost much and I bought it mainly because of the 'unique' (to me) branding of this elusive manufacturer!!! Thanks for your observations, of which I can confirm that the surface does have a crystalline effect and yes I do know of the Inniskilling Fusiliers badge (economy) you mention. I've had one myself, amongst a few others which I beleive is down to powdered brass rather than solid, so my local militaira dealer once told me. In defence of the badge and I'm hedging here, its a strange design with the crown sitting very deeply into the flames which is different than the one piece bi-metal examples, of course remebering this is usually a two piece badge where the crown is attached to the tip. Also the slider is more rounded at the tip than the usual Gaunt re-strike ones and finally why would anyone go to the trouble of forging a brand well know for forgeries? The mind boggles!! Thanks again Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Andy Posted 10 December , 2004 Share Posted 10 December , 2004 For those of us who are new to the hobby and are watching this thread with interest (and trepidation)....... Can you recommend any good books on the subject? I'm still waiting for my copy of Kipling and King to arrive but does (the revised edition) discuss fakes and what to watch out for as well as discussing badge descriptions? If not, can you name any other publications that could help? Over and over again, I've been seeing the badges for sale on E-bay and all of them seem to come from the sellers"own collection" and start at a fiver. I just don't have the knowledge to spot a fake yet but surely original badges are worth more? On the same subject, can you also advise, if possible, on any other publications that cover buttons and other brass insiginia for the period? Are these items also faked? Finally (and with my apologies as this is a little off the post topic), can anyone tell me what buttons would have been worn by the 16th and 18th Battalions of the West Yorks in the Great War? My thanks as always to you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 10 December , 2004 Share Posted 10 December , 2004 Yorkshire Andy...Someone far more qualified than I can help you with badge books, Kipling and King, Gaylor and Cox are the ones I use most often, but only time, patience, experience and "oh s---!" will help you recognize restrikes. As to buttons..."Buttons of the British Army, 1855-1970" by Howard Ripley would be my suggestion. Published by Arms and Armour Press in 1971, it is older than dirt, but you may find a copy somewhere. The "General Service" pattern (Royal Arms) was worn by all the OR's wearing service dress, so your questions about the West Yorks is answered. Some officers continued to wear their "tribal" buttons on OSD, but many wore the General Service type. These were, of course, bronzed for active duty. Hope this helps. DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 10 December , 2004 Share Posted 10 December , 2004 Hi Years ago I remember seeing the top and bottom dies for making buttons for sale as door stops and paper weights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Andy Posted 10 December , 2004 Share Posted 10 December , 2004 Many many thanks DrB - here's to the next Oh S.... One last thing if I may, is the book by Cox the one called "The World War 1 Databook" or another title? Door stops and paper weights? I could cry Thanks again, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 10 December , 2004 Share Posted 10 December , 2004 There ya go, Y. A., experience and a few deleted expletives... The book I am referring to is by Reginald Cox and is entitled "Military Badges of the British Empire, 1914-1918" It is the only one volume book around that has all the pictures or drawings of the empire badges as well as the Brit stuff. India, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, as well as the little colonies which contributed forces during the Great War. (Gobs of Canadian stuff..each artillery Bn?, Yep!) It is inaccurate in places, considering such a scope, but is a fairly good representation of what was worn. It is old and doubtless out of print, but it was published in GB in 1982 and its ISBN is 0-510-00082-7, publishers were Ernest Benn Limited. It may have had another title in GB, but I bought here in the States under the above title. It also shows some collar dogs, shoulder titles and pipers badges, but is not inclusive in those areas, but offer only some regts. Good luck on your search! (Door stops, indeed! Aghhhh!) DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Maclean Posted 10 December , 2004 Share Posted 10 December , 2004 For collar badges I'd have to recommend Colin Churchill's 'Infantry Collar Badges', Ripley's book on buttons, though I have one myself, I find inadequate, and probably not worth the money you would have to pay for a copy. After all if a button has 'Royal Engineers' on it, you can make a pretty good guess as to what that button is . Having good books on cap badges such as Gaylor and K&K along with Churchill's will enable you to identify all of the buttons in Ripley's book and more by the regimental design. A copy of Westlake's 'Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles' possibly C.E.Audax's 'Badge backings and special embellishments of the British Army' and you're well armed to identify most things. Then there's always the support of great forums On restrikes, there's advice to be had on other threads in this forum, but I would say for the time being steer clear of ebay (unless of course you can identify some of the forum members here that give excellent descriptions, good clear photos and guarantees and are a credit to a less than perfect organisation) and don't be in a rush to build up a collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Andy Posted 10 December , 2004 Share Posted 10 December , 2004 Thank you one and all. This really, really is by far the best forum of it's type on the Web. A book hunting I go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 10 December , 2004 Share Posted 10 December , 2004 Over and over again, I've been seeing the badges for sale on E-bay and all of them seem to come from the sellers"own collection" and start at a fiver. I just don't have the knowledge to spot a fake yet but surely original badges are worth more? Andy, From my own experience buying from ebay when new to collecting is full of pitfalls some of which can be expensive. There are some very good sellers out there and some real sharks despite their descriptions of downsizing their collections, etc. They're not collectors at all, just dealers. Feel free to email me privately and I can let you know some from both sides of the coin, I don't want to libel anyone here! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Fisher Posted 10 December , 2004 Share Posted 10 December , 2004 Interesting that Yorkshire Andy raised the issue of restrikes other than badges. I'm sure that someone out there is attempting to knock up copies of RA shoulder titles, but I haven't seen much reproduced by way of collars or shoulders. I have a (very expensive) ringer of a shoulder title, bought from one of the bigger names in badge dealing, and dismissed outright by one of the most trusted names, but that's probably my fault for trusting without researching first. Titles for a couple of quid aren't worth faking (are they?) and collars are, I suspect, similarly cheap and common. That's why a fledgling collection is well served persuing these items, as one can get a feel for the quality of metals and manufacture before buying some of those bargain cap badges.... Take care out there... Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 27 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2004 Just to provide a little more info o Gaunt plaques. I was talking to a reliable dealer today who was telling me that a lot of the JRGaunt London plaques have been removed from their original St Johns Ambulance collar badges and put on restrike RND badges! Very devious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 27 December , 2004 Share Posted 27 December , 2004 Max....who's the dealer then !!!?? Quite agree about the first example, not so sure about the second. I have one of these (lettering on solid bar) which I've thought may be some sort of economy measure but I can find no reference other than that in Gaylor refering to anodized version. It also has a Gaunt type unbranded slider. I think this question can be answered if someone knows if the original dies could used for the production of AA badges and if not could the new dies be used to make copies of old metal ones? Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 28 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2004 The anodised ones were made with a solid bar due to the problems with the fragility of the cut out lettering so a solid one was used. The ww2 plastic economy was the same. They could be economy for WW1 but I doubt it as why bother when it was nickel that was being saved. Also if making an economy badge it should be in all brass like all the others not in gilding metal. If the intent was to save manafacturing time then why bother stamping the mafacturers name on it? I am doubly suspicious as no reference book (K&K, gaylor, Cox et al) mention a gilding mtal solid bar version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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