trajan Posted 9 November , 2015 Share Posted 9 November , 2015 ... what you have is a Simson made M1895 bayonet for the Serbian M1899 contract ... Just to add as general information that if this bayonet was originally made for the Serbian 1899 rifle, then as I understand it, it is one of the three types so produced. I gather that SIMSON made them 1899-1906, and OEWG at Steyr made some 1907-1910. The third type is the rarest and oddest of the three: made 1910-1915 by the Fayette R.Plumb Co. of St. Louis, Missouri, it is double-edged, in a manner similar to the P.1888 - so keep your eyes open for one... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 10 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 November , 2015 Well thanks for the great research S>S and Trajan, and I would say that your analysis is bang on S>S, and that this bayonet is now without doubt identified as an 1899 Serbian Mauser made under the first batch by Simson between 1899 and 1906. After its original Serbian service it has had the muzzle ring reamed out to fit something or other, the original serial number has been scrubbed out, and probably the Serbian crown removed too off the right crosspiece. Here are links to 2 examples of Simson made 1899's that I have found, which I think confirms the id. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30000946 And with the pictures, under Serbia: http://www.ebayonet.com/bayonetsn_s.htm Well it's been a journey, but that's a great result, and I truly appreciate the help and interest one receives from like-minded enthusiasts on this site. Cheers, Tony BTW Trajan, I would say that that 'Bulgarian' bayonet is indeed another example of an 1899 Serbian one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 November , 2015 Share Posted 10 November , 2015 Well it's been a journey, but that's a great result, and I truly appreciate the help and interest one receives from like-minded enthusiasts on this site. No worries Tony, I'm happy to help out because doing the research is fun ... and I actually learn a lot myself from going through the process. Like I didn't know that WKC supplied M1895 bayonets to the Serbs. (I always wondered how I would fit my WKC M1895 into the GW collection.!) Some interesting points to note also from my research. Apparently those Serbian Mausers were some of the most hard-fought rifles of all the Mausers. They were involved in not only the 2 Balkan Wars but then straight into the middle of WW1, and later the surviving examples were used again in WW2. And it seems that re-barrelling was commonplace as the original barrels were routinely shot-out through use. Original rifles are now virtually non-existent. I think the re-barrelling scenario is not much of a stretch at all, and the sourcing of local barrels also rings true. (Mannlicher barrels available in 16.5mm) And regarding the marking found on your example. The use of Serbian Cyrillic characters is also proven on the Serbian Mausers, which were M1899C. The C suffix which confused many over the years is actually the letter S (for Serbia) in their Cyrillic. I note those WKC bayonets also have the C marking. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 November , 2015 Share Posted 11 November , 2015 Well thanks for the great research S>S and Trajan, and I would say that your analysis is bang on S>S, and that this bayonet is now without doubt identified as an 1899 Serbian Mauser made under the first batch by Simson between 1899 and 1906. ... BTW Trajan, I would say that that 'Bulgarian' bayonet is indeed another example of an 1899 Serbian one. ... ... doing the research is fun ... and I actually learn a lot myself from going through the process. ... Yes, nice to have it identified, and nice to follow and share the various steps involved in identifying this one! As for the 'Bulgarian' one, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was a Serbian one! Fortunately, a combination of limited funds and limited space means that I will never be tempted to go into collection all the various Balkan variations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 11 November , 2015 Share Posted 11 November , 2015 My thoughts are it is Siamese Mauser , what is known now as thailand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 12 November , 2015 Share Posted 12 November , 2015 My thoughts are it is Siamese Mauser , what is known now as thailand Nice of you to join the forum just to share your thoughts with us ..... so which model of "Siamese Mauser" rifle do you think this bayonet will fit.?? My thoughts are that the muzzle-ring height, muzzle-ring diameter, blade style, mortise slot and scabbard all differ to a Siamese Mauser bayonet Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 12 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2015 Hi southman1, While the Type 45 Siamese Mauser does have some similarities with this bayonet, as S>S points out the details do not match - and most certainly the markings! These Thai bayonets were made in Japan, though there are no marks to show this. They are also quite common and most bayonet collectors have an example, including me. But as a Thai would say, "khawp khun maak kap" for your contribution (kap being the Bangkok form of krap) (thank you very much in polite form). Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 November , 2015 Share Posted 12 November , 2015 My thoughts are it is Siamese Mauser , what is known now as thailand Well, evidently not - but welcome to GWF! Input of all kinds is always useful and provides a nice learning curve! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 12 November , 2015 Share Posted 12 November , 2015 The type 45 Siamese Mauser was adopted in 1903 caliber 8mm ,manufacture koishikawa arsenal ,the type45 refers to the year 2445 in the Siamese Calendar witch corresponds on the western gregorian as1903 .sorry I had look my Siamese bayonet you are right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 12 November , 2015 Share Posted 12 November , 2015 The Siamese M1903 rifle was basically copied from the Gew98 pattern and made in Japan. As such it featured a simple H lug bayonet bar under the barrel (& cleaning rod) When looking at bayonets and what they might fit, the important thing to consider is how they attached to the rifle. The method of attachment classifies the type of bayonet. So with the Siamese M1903 we are looking for a low muzzle-ring mauser bayonet with TO mortise slot. Tony's bayonet is a high muzzle-ring export mauser type with T slot. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 29 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2015 The Bosnian Cyrillic U was instrumental in identifying the above Serbian 1899 Mauser bayonet - is this also a U on the tang of an 1875 produced Gras bayonet??? The bayonet has sure been around. It is actually my first bayonet given to me when I was about 12 or 13!!!!! The first shot is the Serbian 1899 Mauser. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 15 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 January , 2019 (edited) Well, I seem to have found another Serbian 1899 from the same batch of modified ones! The pictures can do the talking but a couple of points: The mrd is also about 16.5 mm but more crudely enlarged - see pic Instead of a Cyrillic inspection stamp there is an F The scabbards are the same type Cheers, Tony Edited 15 January , 2019 by msdt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 16 January , 2019 Share Posted 16 January , 2019 Dear fellows, does anyone has an idea, if it fits to a serian rifle used during ww1???? In 1880, Serbian Major Kosta "Koka" Milovanović (Коста "Кока" Миловановић) developed an updated version of the Mauser Model 1871, still single-shot, but chambered in its unique 10.15×63R caliber. It had unique additions in that it had a bolt guide (much like the M1870 Italian Vetterli) and the "progressive rifling" that was developed by Koka. The Kingdom of Serbia adopted the rifle in 1881. It was designated Serbian Model 1878/80, also known as Mauser-Koka, Mauser-Milovanović, and known in Serbian as Kokinka (Кокинка). see Donald J. Stocker; Jonathan A. Grant (2003). Girding for Battle: The Arms Trade in a Global Perspective, 1815-1940. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 27–. ISBN 978-0-275-97339-1. This rifle used the long bayonet, BUT the serbian kingdom was produced the Mauser Model 1884 "Artillery Carbine" in 1884 in 4,000 units at the Oberndorf plant for the use of the Serbian cavalry. It was based on the M71/84 and had a five-round turbular magazine. In the late 1930s, all remaining Model 1884 carbines were converted to the 1870s vintage 11×59mmR Gras cartridge, which was in good supply in Yugoslav Army depots. As a carbine rifle, they used for it a short version bayonet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 January , 2019 Share Posted 17 January , 2019 There is a guy over on GunBoardsForum - Andy B - who can best answer this one! He has helped me a lot with Balkan issue bayonets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 26 October , 2019 Share Posted 26 October , 2019 This is mostly a small contract M1895 type bayonet exported by Simson, as there are no proofs of country is hard to say, whats it, its not a serbian M1899 even close to it, they had different shape of hook on scabbard, and proof by letters with crowns, and serial number on crossguard. This is not correct MRD for 7mm rifle should be 15,5mm possible MRD 16,5 mm is for 8mm or higher caliber, when not turned out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 27 October , 2019 Share Posted 27 October , 2019 Her in the State’s, we see these, or almost exactly identical to your’s, most over here say or think export for Spain, on E-Bay, can find them being mis - labeled as 71/84 because the blade is so similar Just an observation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 27 October , 2019 Share Posted 27 October , 2019 (edited) It would be nice to see the pommel rifle slot area, how its joined to tang, anyway i believe its not spanish more real post 1899 (M1910 still had same configuration) for unknown small country?, or it could be reworked to different barell, as some recalibering was done on rifles in South America post 1945. Under sn 24 is older serial on crossguard remains are visible. The frog buttons were too flatened and polished,the older serials were probably removed, any stamps present on ball finial? thanks. Edited 27 October , 2019 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 27 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2019 Hi Andy, Have not been very active on the forum recently, so quite lucky that I have just spotted the responses! (However I did buy 2 bayonets today, one being a Czech issued M95 with an MO (Moravske Ocelarny) blade that I spent some time researching earlier without finding the answers I was after. Bet you could answer, will post some pics!) When the second bayonet pictured appeared it did seem to throw doubt on the Serbian connection. Will dg them out at the weekend and get pics of the tangs.and finials. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 28 October , 2019 Share Posted 28 October , 2019 No problem post pictures, czechoslovak MO marked M95 bayonets could be find on market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 3 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 3 November , 2019 (edited) Here are the pics of the pommel slots. Dimensions are: Back of cross-piece to start of pommel slot = 86mm Length of slot = 25mm Width of slot = 5.5mm MRD = 16.5mm - BUT these have surely been enlarged, so there are 2 questions: What were the bayonets for originally? What were they altered to fit? Finials on scabbards un-marked. Cheers, Tony Edited 3 November , 2019 by msdt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 4 November , 2019 Share Posted 4 November , 2019 Question is here -the piece have originally opened the barell ring to 16,5 or later dremelled by using and rework? The bayonets both are of later production so most real post 1900, this type of bayonet was still used with M1910 Mauser modells, the later models has a larger pommel steel area as is on chilean M1895. MRD is 18mm above blade? i assume the barell rings outer diameter is same as by normal M1895 type with MRD inner 15,5mm. Possible it was corrected for different barell rifle, but with same locking system. With the lower numbers, i assume its a very small contract, with no inspectors proofs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 4 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2019 Hi Andy, thanks for the input. I think the 16.5mm is a re-work, especially the second one I got has a fairly crude 16.5mm MRD. I suspect that they started as 15.5mm. What is a bit odd is that although the cross-piece numbers are low they seem to be around. Maybe they were released not so long ago. Still intriguing as to the original application! Cheers, Tony P.S. Tomorrow will post some more Czech service M95's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 5 November , 2019 Share Posted 5 November , 2019 Yes , the other point is the one serial was overstamped with new one, possible for the new rifle? maybe it should be investigate were from came these pieces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 September , 2021 Share Posted 27 September , 2021 Sorry to revive this ancient thread but I have just acquired something which may be related: Overall Length: 365mm Blade Length: 245mm (double edged) Blade width 25mm Blade thickness (by crossguard) 5mm MRD: 16mm Height of MR: 19mm Slot 27mm I got this because I thought it was a Serbian 1899 bayonet but now I am having second thoughts. The blade is, as far as I can see unmarked (although it seems to have been polished somewhat excessively so I wonder if light markings may have been erased. There is a serial number on the crosspiece M30996 and a couple of numbers on the frog stud 675 and 98 and there is also the remains of OEWG partially overstamped by 675 If it is a Serbian 1899 Bayonet it does not appear to be one of those manufactured in the US by Plumb which show up with some frequency here. Based on this thread I wonder if it might not have been refinished or converted. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 28 September , 2021 Share Posted 28 September , 2021 (edited) This bayonet is Plumb 1915 delivery already reworked by Yugoslavia postwar,so no visible stamps there on ricasso, note the yugo screw instead of rivets,this was done probably in early 20ies, the scabbard is mostly Austrian M1888/90 and reserialed already for M95M bayonet probably on hook, i assume the frog has round hole, so most real this is a german or different frog probably for dress bayonet oval hole for frog is there. Edited 29 September , 2021 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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