msdt Posted 5 November , 2015 Share Posted 5 November , 2015 Have so far failed to identify this bayonet that I've had a while and been meaning to post. German made by Simson & Companie of Suhl. Serial number 24 on the left of the crosspiece. No pomel hole for a cleaning rod. The muzzle ring starts 18 mm above the back of the hilt, so quite high. Muzzle Ring Diameter is 16.5 mm. Overall length is 37.1 mm and blade length is 25.1 mm. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 5 November , 2015 Share Posted 5 November , 2015 Had a look without success, I will leave this one to the blade experts ! khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 5 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2015 Cheers khaki - same result as me then!!! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 5 November , 2015 Share Posted 5 November , 2015 It says Turkey to me. Without specific muzzle ring dimensions, one cannot be sure, but the ring looks right to me for a Turk (or other export style) Mauser. The interesting thing are the grip rivets. Not as many done that way, and usually earlier ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 November , 2015 Share Posted 5 November , 2015 Well it is basically an 'export Mauser' type bayonet that was commercially produced in Germany in the latter stages of the 19th century and sold widely. The style of it closely matches the common M1895 bayonet that was sold with the Mauser rifles to Chile. See photo of my Chilean issue M1895 below. These bayonets for the Chilean M1895 were made by Weyersberg, Kirschbaum in Solingen however some were also made by OEWG in Steyr, Austria. So overall everything about your bayonet matches the M1895 ... except for the muzzle ring diameter. The Chilean M1895 has a MRD of just over 15mm. Will have to do some more checking out for which export rifle contract required the enlarged MRD. The Germans were prolific South American suppliers. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 6 November , 2015 Share Posted 6 November , 2015 Providing it's the correct one, does the type of scabbard tell us anything ? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 November , 2015 Share Posted 6 November , 2015 Yes Khaki, the scabbard as shown by Tony is also a perfect match to those that were made specifically for the Chilean contract ie. Mauser M1895 rifle in 7mm That's not to say that all a particular type of 'export' bayonet were shipped to the originally intended country. There were always leftovers that went elsewhere ... That period 1890 till 1905 was certainly a very busy time in the armaments industry with many countries placing orders for the new models of the Mauser rifles. Consider the Spanish M1893, the Turkish M1893, the Chilean M1895, the Boer M1896 and the Serbian M1899 which were all virtually the same variation rifle. This bayonet of Tony's is essentially a M1895, the blade length, overall length, scabbard, mortise slot & locking mechanism are all a perfect match for an M1895. The MRD (muzzle ring diameter / think barrel size of rifle) is the only thing being a problem. The first thing would be to ask Tony to check it again with calipers.!! I usually take 4 measurements of the main axis (horizontal, vertical, and both diagonals) to make sure there is not any 'out of shape' issues which can often occur. Then if it IS actually 16.5mm MRD then we do have an unusual one as virtually all the Mauser types of that period were made with the same MRD all around 15.5 There is one other possibility which probably needs further investigation ... and that is, that it could be a Simson made bayonet that went to Serbia for the M1899.? The Serbian bayonets are not well known and apparently Simson DID provide some for the M1899 around that time. So a M1895 that went off to another country.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 November , 2015 Share Posted 6 November , 2015 A MRD of 16.5 does indeed suggest something Balkanish... Simpson and Co did make ones for Bulgaria, for the M.1888, but I think they had square-ended fullers... I'll try and check later - according to my notes then apart from Simson, there are also Coppel, WKC and Luneschloss marked M.1888 bayonets, all with a MRD of 16.5. BTW, Mexico and Argentina also had bayonets with a MRD of 16.5, but these had quite different hilts, crossguards, etc. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 6 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 November , 2015 Thanks everyone for all the input so far. I'm confident about the mrd of 16.5 mm, and the bayonet does not seem to have been altered.Cheers,Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 November , 2015 Share Posted 6 November , 2015 Hi Tony, Well, a MRD of 16.5 would certainly fit the Mannlicher 1888, 1888/90, and 1890 series, and so somewhere in the Balkans is certainly likely as the home for this one, especially as various German firms supplied bayonets to the countries there. My only hesitation in suggesting which country - and bear in mind that I don't claim to be an expert on these ones (or any others, for that matter!) - is that the SIMSON ones I am aware of that were made for the KuK group have square-ended fullers. But if this is a Romanian or some such issue, then perhaps rounded-ones were desired... Romania certainly picked up all sorts: I once had a Romanian bayonet that was modelled on the Gras but with a longer hilt for something else - an M-P, if I remember rightly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 November , 2015 Share Posted 6 November , 2015 While the MRD of 16.5mm might suit an early Mannlicher, the muzzle-ring height would not. Those Mannlicher rifles stated are all 'bar-on-band' bayonet attachment so lower MR height. The high muzzle-ring as found on Tony's bayonet is indicative of a particular class of rifle & bayonet, and that's the 'export Mauser' of the 1890's. Bayonets attached below the nosecap. Cheers, S>S PS. Just thinking that the lack of any country specific 'ownership markings' stamped on the bayonet may perhaps be because it didn't fit ANYTHING. Factory seconds are a possibility But on the other hand, when you look down the hilt at the crossguard, the muzzle-ring does appear to have been reamed out. The ring is much thinner than on my German made M1895. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 November , 2015 Share Posted 7 November , 2015 Very good point SS! FWIW (not very much!), the height of the muzzle ring matches that of the Y1903, which has, of course, a smaller MRD... I can see why the possibility of it being reamed out comes into play, so, Tony, what is the overall external width of the crossguard at the muzzle ring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 7 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 November , 2015 Overall external width across the muzzle ring on the horizontal axis is 21.5 mm. BUT just had a strong light and glass on it and spotted something interesting! The plot thickens! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 November , 2015 Share Posted 7 November , 2015 Well, that IS intriguing! And may help in working out this one... SS will know better than me about MRD's, but off-hand, there are not that many rifles around with a barrel that requires a bayonet with an MRD of 16.5, especially if said bayonet has a T-sectioned mortise slot for a bar beneath barrel system... (Thinks: wonder if it would fit a Lee-Metford???!!!) I do wonder if the thing has been reconditioned as SS hinted at? I.E., a reaming out of the existing MRD or even a complete new crossguard being fitted? Excuse me while I elaborate (boast???!!!) but the great joy to me of the Greek Y1903's I have been finding is that they are unaltered - the Bulgarians took loads of these and fitted new crossguards to them, and w/o evidence of a St,George mark or naval anchor in the pommel, it is not immediately obvious that what seem to be Bulgarian M.95's are in fact reconditioned Greek Y1903's (this, of course, explains my extreme joy in finding an unaltered Naval-marked Y1903 - no other examples are known to exist!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 November , 2015 Share Posted 7 November , 2015 Overall external width across the muzzle ring on the horizontal axis is 21.5 mm. Thanks for the measurements Tony. So I think that makes it an original M1895 with crossguard that has had the muzzle-ring reamed out to increase the MRD to 16.5mm. I measured my WKC manufactured Chilean issue M1895 and it's external width across the ring is very close at 21.8mm, while it's internal ring diameter is a standard 15.5 Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 November , 2015 Share Posted 8 November , 2015 Been pondering some more on this ... another thing to consider is the German issue of non-standard & foreign bayonets during the GW simply as seitengewehr (literally side-arms) There are many references in the books to these 'export' type bayonets being taken out of stores, as well as existing contracts being filled at the start of the war being requisitioned. It is hard to comprehend exactly how (and why) they would have been used as 'side-arms' until you actually see the photos. It appears that they had a need for them & a shortage. A classic example that comes to mind was a nice photo posted by 4thGordons on his German Uniforms thread where a Staff Officer is shown wearing a Mexican M1912 bayonet.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 November , 2015 Share Posted 8 November , 2015 ... So I think that makes it an original M1895 with crossguard that has had the muzzle-ring reamed out to increase the MRD to 16.5mm. I measured my WKC manufactured Chilean issue M1895 and it's external width across the ring is very close at 21.8mm ... In my limited experience that is a pretty common crossguard width for a variety of bayonets... But, if reamed out, as you think, what is it to fit? ... the German issue of non-standard & foreign bayonets during the GW simply as seitengewehr (literally side-arms). There are many references in the books to these 'export' type bayonets being taken out of stores, as well as existing contracts being filled at the start of the war being requisitioned. ... A classic example that comes to mind was a nice photo posted by 4thGordons ... where a Staff Officer is shown wearing a Mexican M1912 bayonet.! There are certainly some bayonets destined for foreign use that became ''German'' Seitengewehr instead for the duration - but these came with their proper rifles or were adapted to fit the Gew.71/88 series or the Gew.98... The staff officer wearing a Mexican M.1912 is a different matter from what we have here, a bayonet that may have been reamed out to fit a specific type of rifle. Staff officers (and others) wearing bayonets as Seitengewehr in the strict sense, as 'sidearms', to indicate rank and status, often used ones that were not fixable to a rifle - or at least not one in regular German use! More to the point, though, there can't be that many rifles around that would take an under the barrel bayonet with a 16.5 MRD are there? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 November , 2015 Share Posted 8 November , 2015 ...a Staff Officer is shown wearing a Mexican M1912 bayonet.! I don't collect South American stuff, but out of interest I thought I'd follow up this Mexican thing and it seems that these were Steyr made, and that over 60,000 Steyr M.1912's became the KuK modell 1914... Maybe this guy in the photograph was Austrian? Not directly relevant to the OP of course, but as an aside to follow up on SS's observation, and to stress that bayonets usually go with rifles - and so that MRD of 16.5 in the bayonet in the OP must mean something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 8 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 November , 2015 Thanks again for your thoughts S>S and Trajan. Still a bit of a mystery though. If it were from a batch of bayonets made by Simson for the M1895 then the mrd would be 15.5 mm. So why ream it out? There is one other mark which I have seen somewhere on another bayonet I have - It is on the underside of the crosspiece and is either an inspection or maker's mark. It kind of looks like a stylised reindeer head from the front - a circle with 2 antlers. Maybe Simson got the crosspieces from the same supplier as Weyersberg did. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 November , 2015 Share Posted 8 November , 2015 You DO like throwing the spanners in the works with your finds don't you???!!! Antlers, normally one but twos and threes also, are Wurttemburg marks - but not deer's heads in the headlights, so to speak... Time for a photograph, and then SS can take over the night shift as he is awake after I am abed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 8 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 November , 2015 Hmmm! A "stylised reindeer head from the front", well I'll be seeing the optician soon! Looks a bit more like an 8 with the top missing. But I'm sure I've seen this mark in a similar position on another bayonet I have, though I haven't recorded it. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 November , 2015 Share Posted 9 November , 2015 Well Tony I think we might be finally on to something.! But firstly, that is NOT a reindeer head.! Secondly, well done on picking that marking up ... it is a sign. Yes I believe it is a sign that this bayonet did indeed go to the Balkans. Now it may look like a partial 8, but it is in fact a letter U in the Slavic Glagolitic alphabet. At first I thought it may have been Cyrillic, but some further research led me too the other old Slavic writing, which is Glagolitic. Still not certain exactly which country.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 November , 2015 Share Posted 9 November , 2015 There is one other possibility which probably needs further investigation ... and that is, that it could be a Simson made bayonet that went to Serbia for the M1899.? The Serbian bayonets are not well known and apparently Simson DID provide some for the M1899 around that time. So a M1895 that went off to another country.? Cheers, S>S Tony, I think I am going to go back to my original "guesstimate" .... and that what you have is a Simson made M1895 bayonet for the Serbian M1899 contract. We do know that Simson made bayonets for this particular contract, and that the rifles were virtually identical to the Chilean M1895. These both had 15.5 MRD. This quote from the noted Mauser reference (MMROTW-Ball) "In 1899, Serbia contracted with DWM and Steyr for the delivery of Chilean-style Model M1895 rifles" Then we only need to answer that problematic issue regarding the enlarged muzzle-ring. As far as I'm aware there are no standard export Mausers with 16.5 MRD. So my scenario involves a Serbian refurbishment programme that utilised the standard M1899 rifle, but which was rebarrelled with a larger 16.5mm diameter barrel. This could be either a locally produced barrel with a larger diameter, or an earlier model Mannlicher rifle barrel (they were in 16.5) which was converted to the role.? So then the follow-on from that rifle modification would require a bayonet to be adapted to suit. A simple reaming out of the muzzle-ring would be all that is required. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 November , 2015 Share Posted 9 November , 2015 I make no claims to being a polyglot, and I am certainly not a rifle buff, but this one at: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RR-BULGARIA-GENERAL-SIMSON-SUHL-MAUSER-M1893-95-BAYONET-/180170250010- a SIMSON with rounded fullers - looks rather similar to the one in the OP. It is allegedly Bulgarian, but seem to have the smaller MRD... Trajan PS: no connection to the seller, of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 November , 2015 Share Posted 9 November , 2015 At first I thought it may have been Cyrillic, but some further research led me too the other old Slavic writing, which is Glagolitic. Still not certain exactly which country.? And I am not really a 'polyglot' either, just someone who is intrigued by the markings found on bayonets.! Learning about foreign languages and alphabets is just part of it. Further research into this mystery symbol reveals it IS a letter U in the early Slavic alphabet of the Balkans, however there are conflicting claims as to the alphabets origins. It can be either Croatian, Bosnian or Serbian Cyrillic depending on which side of the fence you are sitting.! But basically it is from the early Cyrillic and/or based on Glagolitic. THIS Wiki page probably sums it up the best, and the associated diagram shows the letter/symbol as described. And the Bosnian region certainly fits with the Serbian profile.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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