Head stamp identification ?

[Dorset1]

Hello all,

I am a newbie to the forum ! Apologies if this is on the wrong thread ! Any chance anyone could identify some what I believe to be ww1 German ammunition ? Anyone willing to tell me what each signifies would help me bothering folk in the future ? ;-) I've had a go below.

I'm guessing S means Spitzer and that they are 1917 ?

S / H / 11 / E17 suggestion of manufacturer below:

H Rheinische Metallwaren und Maschinenfabrik, Dusseldorf, Germany 1

S / L / 10 / E17 - manufacturer suggestions below ?

L Lorenz Patronenfabrik (Ammunition & Ordnance Co.), Karlsruhe, Germany 11, 12

L Lindener Zündhütchen-und Thonwarenfabrik, Hannover, Germany 1

L Lignose A.-G., Berlin, Germany 3

S / DM / 11 / E17 manufacturer suggestion below

=Deutsche Waffen-u. Munitionsfabriken A.-G., , Früher Lorenz , Karlsruhe, Germany 1

SE / C / 12 / 17

C Munitionsfabrik Cassel, Cassel, Germany 1

[shippingsteel]

You have most of the manufacturer's correctly identified, but I will list my interpretations of the markings below to allow for a comparison.

(With thanks to our late friend Tony Edwards who was kind enough to teach most of us here, the basics of Imperial headstamp markings)

S / H / 11 / E17 .... Spitzgeschoss (pointed bullet), Rheinische Metallwaren und Maschinenfabrik, made November 1917, Einheitshülse (standard case)

S / L / 10 / E17 .... Spitzgeschoss (pointed bullet), Lindener Zündhütchen und Thonwaarenfabrik, made October 1917, Einheitshülse (standard case)

S / DM / 11 / E17 ... Spitzgeschoss (pointed bullet), Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken, made November 1917, Einheitshülse (standard case)

SE / C / 12 / 17 ..... Spitzgeschoss - Eisenhülse (pointed bullet, steel case), Munitionsfabrik Cassel, made December 1917

Cheers, S>S

[Dorset1]

Thank you for the reply ! They are supposedly from passchendale but obviously no certainty.

It doesn't look like they have been fired !!!

Looks like there are 2/3 options for one of the codes. How did you determine which manufacturer ?

Also, although they have slightly different markings are we saying they would of been used with a Mauser ?

[shippingsteel]

For that particular time period and headstamp marking, there should only be the one manufacturer ie. Lindener Zündhütchen

Yes they should all be the standard German Mauser ammunition in 7.92 x 57. The standard cases were for both rifle and MG.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... Anyone willing to tell me what each signifies would help me bothering folk in the future ? ;-) I've had a go below. ...

Well, as SS showed, your ID's were pretty spot on! Just out of interest, what was your source for identifying these?

Trajan

[SiegeGunner]

(With thanks to our late friend Tony Edwards who was kind enough to teach most of us here, the basics of Imperial headstamp markings)

Yesterday was the first anniversary of Tony's untimely death. It eases the loss a little to know that his knowledge and expertise live on.

[shippingsteel]

Really SG - has it been 12 months already.?? I had no idea of the significance of the date .... but something told me that I needed to answer that post.

A little spooky perhaps, now that you mention it. Of course the subject area made me think immediately of TonyE. I still miss his valuable contributions.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Yesterday was the first anniversary of Tony's untimely death. It eases the loss a little to know that his knowledge and expertise live on.

Off topic in a way, but indeed, a great loss to all, so raise one at the Pineapple for him later today - I'll join you all in spirit!

[Dorset1]

I used various websites online to be honest.

This one was good

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes

[trajan]

Thanks - that looks a pretty comprehensive listing to me! And even better is that it is referenced - far too often such lists omit the relevant source information, and in my view unsupported claims regarding identification of any form of military marking is highly suspect...

Trajan

[Dorset1]

Found a few others out recently marked S67, S68 and S. I understand what that means but just to confirm, Would these have all been fired by the same model of gun ?

The Mauser ?

In addition, any ideas on the code N & C ?

[shippingsteel]

Well the simple S signifies the Spitzgeschoss bullet, while the S67 indicates the same with the copper/zinc alloy casing. However the S68 is the odd one out.?

It could perhaps be S88 instead. Maybe you could check.? This would then identify the cartridge as a Patronen 88. This ammunition would all suit the Mauser.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Well the simple S signifies the Spitzgeschoss bullet, while the S67 indicates the same with the copper/zinc alloy casing. However the S68 is the odd one out.?

It could perhaps be S88 instead. Maybe you could check.? This would then identify the cartridge as a Patronen 88. This ammunition would all suit the Mauser.

Cheers, S>S

Just for information and/or clarification, if necessary, the '67' indicates the copper content of the case as 67%. These were introduced by a decree dated 23 February 1915. The S68 is certainly superficially at least an odd marking...

[trajan]

...S68 ... perhaps be S88 instead ... This would then identify the cartridge as a Patronen 88. ...

I did a search of German sites on these cartridges and no S68 came up. IF S 88, then this is an 88 cartridge case filled with 'S-powder' - correct?

[shippingsteel]

In addition, any ideas on the code N & C ?

The only Imperial German manufacturer that would come close to that would be Niebecker und Schumacher of Solingen. Their headstamp was N & S. Maybe a possibility.?

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

The only Imperial German manufacturer that would come close to that would be Niebecker und Schumacher of Solingen. Their headstamp was N & S. Maybe a possibility.?

Cheers, S>S

In which case one of the rarer cases(!), as I understand that they were only manufacturing in 1917-1918...

[trajan]

S / H / 11 / E17 .... Spitzgeschoss (pointed bullet), Rheinische Metallwaren und Maschinenfabrik, made November 1917, Einheitshülse (standard case)

S / L / 10 / E17 .... Spitzgeschoss (pointed bullet), Lindener Zündhütchen und Thonwaarenfabrik, made October 1917, Einheitshülse (standard case)

S / DM / 11 / E17 ... Spitzgeschoss (pointed bullet), Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken, made November 1917, Einheitshülse (standard case)

SE / C / 12 / 17 ..... Spitzgeschoss - Eisenhülse (pointed bullet, steel case), Munitionsfabrik Cassel, made December 1917

As is sometimes the case, a nagging doubt and/or inconsistency about something observed earlier drew me back to this thread and it suddenly hit me - SS, are you sure about this "Einheitshülse (standard case)" interpretation? Not my field, I know, but after noticing this term - one which I have not come across before - a quick check of things did not throw up a Einheitshülse with Spitzer cases and so I wonder if the single 'E' is just one variant of the marking for "Eisenhülse", and so 'Iron case'... I might be completely wrong, but if you can let us have your source then that will clarify the matter!

Oh, and Dorset1, BTW, as I understand it, the cross-marks on the bases of some of those cases indicates a crimped case, one in which the bullet proper has been securely fastened into the case to make certain that the powder did not become damp. How is your German? There is a lot out there!

Trajan

[Michael Haselgrove]

Julian,

Yes, in my opinion you are correct that the E17 mark signifies an iron case. See, for instance, Cartridge Headstamp Guide by White and Burton 1963/1977 page 54.

As to the headstamp with four radial lines this part of the headstamp was introduced in 1916. Prior to that the bullet jackets were cupro-nickel clad with a mild steel jacket and lead core with 2% antimony. The bullet did lack one characteristic in that it had no cannelure. It was believed that the bullet, seated to the proper depth and the mouth of the case crimped with such force that a depression was formed in the bullet, was adeqate to hold the bullet in place.

In 1916 the Tombak jacket was introduced as a replacement for cupro-nickel. With the new jacket the bullet was designed with a positive cannelure about 1mm wide. A bullet with this cannelure was known as a "Rille Munition" and bullets with this cannelure can be found with cupro-nickel and tombak jackets. Initially Tombak jacketed bullets were restricted for use in machine guns as excessive fouling had been experienced in machine guns firing cupro-nickel jacketed bullets. However, once production of Tombak jacketed bullets was adequate the four radial lines on Tombak jacketed bullets reportedly indicated that they are suitable for both rifle and machine gun use. In this respect see German 7.9mm Military Ammunition 1888 - 1945. Kent. 1973/90.

Having mentioned the above the study of cartridge headstamps is an area in which, in my experience, there is considerable uncertainty as to exact meanings in some instances.

Regards,

Michael.

[shippingsteel]

SS, are you sure about this "Einheitshülse (standard case)" interpretation? Not my field, I know, but after noticing this term - one which I have not come across before - a quick check of things did not throw up a Einheitshülse with Spitzer cases and so I wonder if the single 'E' is just one variant of the marking for "Eisenhülse", and so 'Iron case'... I might be completely wrong ...

Julian, Yes, in my opinion you are correct that the E17 mark signifies an iron case.

Having mentioned the above the study of cartridge headstamps is an area in which, in my experience, there is considerable uncertainty as to exact meanings in some instances.

Yes there is obviously no doubt that there is uncertainty regarding the exact meanings of some markings, and this is not helped by ill-advised and ill-informed comment.

Of course everyone has a right to an opinion, and also a right to be wrong - however there is also an expectation that some members may perhaps look to the evidence.?

The cases in question are clearly displayed in the photos of the OP (reposted here for clarity) with the SE 'Iron case' to the left of the group and 3 brass cases to the right.

The room for confusion with the E marking is well established, but you have to look to the clues wherever you can. TonyE was a very knowledgeable member in this area.

He was kind enough to pass on some of this knowledge through this forum for which I am grateful. It is a lesser known fact that a E17 headstamp indicates Einheitshulse.

These particular cases (which of course are made of brass not 'iron') where for use in both the rifles and machine-guns. They were like the universal or standard munition.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... Having mentioned the above the study of cartridge headstamps is an area in which, in my experience, there is considerable uncertainty as to exact meanings in some instances.

Yes there is obviously no doubt that there is uncertainty regarding the exact meanings of some markings, and this is not helped by ill-advised and ill-informed comment.

Of course everyone has a right to an opinion, and also a right to be wrong - however there is also an expectation that some members may perhaps look to the evidence.?

... TonyE was a very knowledgeable member in this area. ... It is a lesser known fact that a E17 headstamp indicates Einheitshulse.

Thanks to both for your comments, but SS, seeking clarification on the basis of contradictory data should not be categorised as "ill-advised and ill-informed comment" - especially not when it is based on a "look to the evidence"! I have said freely that I know little on this subject and merely seek clarification - and barbed bad-tempered replies don't help in this way! As Michael commented, and as you acknowledge, there is "considerable uncertainty" about some markings, and this needs to be taken into account when questioned on the matter, rather than adopting a bellicose stance!

Ok, down to details:

TonyE wrote on one of his posts (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67467 no 13) that: ""E" is Eisen or steel case / SE is also steel case.", although he corrects himself in post 17, in reference to two M88 cases, one marked "14 E" and another marked "13 E", noting that in these " the "E" means "Einheitshulse", or "Standard" case for both rifles and machine guns." He didn't illustrate these - but note that these are M88 cases and also the way that the "E" comes after the year date... So, expecting German conformity(!) in all matters, I just wondered if in Dorest1's case(!) an "E" before the year date meant 'Eisen'...

This impression seemed to be confirmed by one German source I looked at that seems to indicate that the "E" for Einheitshülse marking was not used on Spitzer rounds (and it may not be coincidental that the two TonyE mentioned in connection with this interpretation of the "E" lack the "S" abbreviation)... Added to which another source (an official publication of the Bavarian Military museum) shows a case marked "E 16" and another marked "E 18", and explains these as being iron cases made in 1916 and 1918 respectively... In which case, Dorset1's case, "E 17" would also be an iron one.

So, to summarise, it seemed to me, having looked at the evidence, that an M88 round marked with an "E" and lacking an "S" and with the "E" after the year date is an Einheitshülse; but a round marked with an "E" and an "S" with the "E" before the year date is an Eisen one... I might indeed be completely wrong, but, as Michael says, there is uncertainty on the matter, and as this is not my field, and I don't have much source material to hand, then I am content to leave it at that in the absence of further informed comment.

Of course, if SS or anyone else can show me where TonyE or anyone else wrote that an "E17 headstamp indicates Einheitshulse" that would be useful contradictory evidence to me - but I for one would not like to directly challenge the opinion of the German author of a Bavarian Military museum publication on the matter!

Best wishes,

Trajan

EDIT: PS: Back from my morning walk and a thought - Einheitshülse is perhaps best translated as "universal" rather than "standard" as it was for "universal" use in rifles and MG's.

[trajan]

As to the headstamp with four radial lines this part of the headstamp was introduced in 1916. Prior to that the bullet jackets were cupro-nickel clad with a mild steel jacket and lead core with 2% antimony. The bullet did lack one characteristic in that it had no cannelure. It was believed that the bullet, seated to the proper depth and the mouth of the case crimped with such force that a depression was formed in the bullet, was adeqate to hold the bullet in place. ...

My first chance all day to look back on this point... Thanks for the clarification. Of course I cross-checked with the two German sources I have (! ) - no, not to judge, just to see what they said!

It seems that the problem of the insecure housing (and so the damp entering the case) was officially noticed/acknowledged around 3rd November 1915 when it was decided to crimp the case to ensure a better seating for the bullet apparently around the rille - I guess that is the cannelure? A groove at the base and around the bullet proper? Whatever, the German for these marks on the base is apparently Segmentaufteilung zur kennzeichnung Geschoss mit rille - something like 'Divided base for identification of bullet with a groove'. Packages for these were then marked with a bright red "R" for rille until December 1917.

Just to add to the potential confusion though, from my sources, it seems that up to 1899, MG cases were marked with three grooves, and then after that with four, but also with the letter "M"...

What a fascinating subject these cases are! The more I read the more I get to know about them - but I'll leave off collecting and just keep it as an odd aside thing, to explore when other things facilitate the matter!

Julian

[Dorset1]

Interesting discussion. Here's an interesting marking on this headstamp (right)

Looks like an odd shape ?

[shippingsteel]

Here's an interesting marking on this headstamp (right) Looks like an odd shape ?

This monogrammed OS headstamp reportedly belongs to the manufacturer Oberschlesische Eisenwerke AG, which later became part of Hugo Schneider AG (HASAG)

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... Here's an interesting marking on this headstamp (right) ...

This monogrammed OS headstamp reportedly belongs to the manufacturer Oberschlesische Eisenwerke AG, which later became part of Hugo Schneider AG (HASAG)

Well, an important but minor detail, is that my sources have Oberschlesische Sprengstoff, AG, Lignose, Schoenbeck a.d.Elbe, which fits a monogrammed OS much better than Oberschlesische Eisenwerke... SS, which source are you using for your information?

And Dorset1, you know the rest of the formula - (manufacturer), month, year and, in this case, S67.

Trajan

EDIT: PS, FYI, a quick check revealed a list provided by the late TonyE that also gives Oberschlesische Sprengstoff

[Dorset1]

More help needed please all. These are a different shape and headstamp to the others. Short and dumpy without the rim on the base. I've tried to pick out a few of the marking.

Edited 14 November , 2015 by Dorset1