Guest KevinEndon Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Do any members have a list of makers marks on shells and bullets/rounds please so I can identify who/where certain rounds came from. kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 I am afraid that a complete list (which of course does not exist) would take up several volumes. There are several books and web sites for small arms ammunition, but very little for identification marks on shells or artillery cartridge cases. It also depends on the nationality od the round you are trying to identify. Your best bet is to post the question here and usually the combined knowledge of the Pals can answer your questions. The following is the best site for cartridge headstamps: http://cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes.htm There are others but the ICCA is the most accurate. I have published a short book on .303 British identification. PM me for details. Hope this helps Regards TonyE Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taiha Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Okay I have a round I picked up in france and was wondering if any one could help indentify it. The marks are as follows (in each quarter of the butt of the casing (the dashes mark the breaks between marks): 5(or 6) - 15 - S67 - P. I think it is a 1915 German round (8 [7.92mm]x57), but I am not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KevinEndon Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 many thanks Tony, PM sent with my email address Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taiha Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Where did you get that info from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 s67 H Utendoerffer Munitionsfabrik Nuernberg. Sorry Tom, not so. S67 is the cartridge case alloy, 67% copper. The manufacturer is "P", Polte, Werke Magdeburg. 5 15 is the date, May 1915 Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taiha Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Tony, you mentioned previously about marks on the base of the bullet (not the cartridge) you are right, difficult to see but i have a German one marked with a P would that be the manufacturer? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KevinEndon Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 OI Auchonvillers get off MY THREAD you hijacker lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 at least ive hijacked it and not got it kicked! (again) Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 I think s67 H Utendoerffer Munitionsfabrik Nuernberg is a ww2 headstamp (don't hold me to that) Garron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Patronen 88 (E, S, S88, S67, 67 (67 % copper - 33 % zinc)) 90° und 120° Einteilung : 1901 > 1916 C Munitionsfabrik, Cassel : (S : 1915) D Munitionsfabrik, Dresden : (S : 1914 >1915) DM Deutsche Munitionsfabriken, Karlsruhe : (E : 1903, 1911 > 1913 / S88 : 1913 / S :1914 > 1915) G Württembergische Metallwarenfabrik, Geislingen/Steige : (67 : 1915 > 1916) GD Gustav Genschow, Durlach in Baden : (1914 >1916) H Rheinische Metallwarenfabrik, Düsseldorf : (S : 1913 >1915 / S67 : 1915) J (I) Hauptlaboratorium, Ingolstadt : (E : 1902 >1903) MW Munitionswerke, Schönebecke an der Elbe : (S67 : 1915) OS Oberschlesische A.G., Schönebeck an der Elbe : (67 : 1915) P Polte Magdeburg : (E : 1902 >1905 / S : 1913 > 1915 / S88 : 1913 / S67 : 1915) S König. Arsenal, Spandau : (E : 1901 >1903 / S : 1912 >1915 / S88 : 1912 > 1913 / S67 : 1915) Patronen S mit S-Hülse (67 % copper - 33 % zinc) und Eisenhülsen (iron case) S [sE, E]) : 1915 > 1918 C Munitionsfabrik, Cassel : (S67, E16, E17, SE) 1915 > 1918 D Königliches Arsenal, Dresden : (S67, E16, E17, SE) 1915 > 1918 DM Deutsche Waffen-u. Munitionsfabriken, Karlsruhe/Berlin : (S67, E17, E18, SE) 1915 > 1918 Do G.C. Dornheim, Suhl : (S67) 1915 > 1918 E&G Ehrich u. Graetz, Berlin : (S67, E17, E18) 1916 > 1917 G Württembergische Metallwarenfabrik, Geislingen/Steige : (S67, SE) 1915 > 1918 Ge Gustav Genschow A.G., Durlach : (S67) 1916 > 1918 GM Grüneberger Metallwarenfabrik : (S67) 1916 > 1918 H Rheinische Metallwarenfabrik, Düsseldorf : (S67, E17, E18, SE) 1915 > 1918 J (I) Hauptlaboratorium, Ingolstadt : S67) 1915 > 1916 L Lindener Zündhütchen u. Thonwarenfabrik, Hannover : (S67, E17) 1915 > 1918 N RWS, Werk Nürnberg und Stadeln : (S67, SE, E17) 1915 > 1918 N&S Niebecker und Schumacher, Solingen : (S67) 1917 > 1918 OS Oberschlesische A.G., Schönebeck an der Elbe : (S67, SE) 1915 > 1918 P Polte-Werke, Zentrale Magdeburg : (S67, E17, SE, E18) 1915 > 1918 PMF Pulver und Munitionsfabrik, Dachau : (S67, SE, E17) 1916 > 1918 S Königliches Munitionsfabrik, Spandau : (S67, E16, E17, E18, SE) 1915 > 1918 SB Sellier & Bellot, Schönebeck an der Elbe : (S67) 1916 > 1918 UN RWS, Utendörffer, Nürnberg : (S67, SE, E17) 1915 > 1918 Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Let's get a sense of reality here. The original question was for a German 7.92 round from WWI. What has Peters Cartridge Company got to do with that? The whole art (skill?) of identifying anything is to have a sense of context and go from there. Re: all the German manufacturers posted previously, most of the codes shown are not manufacturers codes! S means "S" patrone or spitzer bullet. If two "S in headstamp the second is Spandau Arsenal S67 is S patrone with 67% brass in case alloy "E" is Eisen or steel case SE is also steel case. In WWI these were all copper washed, as lacquered cases did not become the norm until WWII. All WWI German military 7.92 will have S67 or one of the Steel case codes in the headstamp, together with a month and year, then the manufacturers code. The only exceptions to thia are some special air service loads that only have a three position headstamp. The P series codes prior and during early WWII years are something totally different and just because P67 is Utendoeffer it has no relation to S67 from WWI. Rant over Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Tony, you mentioned previously about marks on the base of the bullet (not the cartridge) you are right, difficult to see but i have a German one marked with a P would that be the manufacturer? Mick Sorry Mick, forgot to answer that in the previous (somewhat ill tempered) post. The practise of stamping the base of the bullet core with a manufacturers code is predominately British, but other countries also did it. If you have a German bullet with "P" stamped in the base it will be made by Polte, one of the major German manufacturers, in Magdeburg. Polte continued right through to the end of WWII and were heavily involved with the development of German experimental ammunition, particularly the 7.92mm kurz round for the MP42/43/44 assault rifles. Magdeburg was in East Germany and probably continued production under the communist regime as factory 05. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taiha Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Wow, learnt a lot. I found it on the Somme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Sorry Mick, forgot to answer that in the previous (somewhat ill tempered) post. The practise of stamping the base of the bullet core with a manufacturers code is predominately British, but other countries also did it. If you have a German bullet with "P" stamped in the base it will be made by Polte, one of the major German manufacturers, in Magdeburg. Polte continued right through to the end of WWII and were heavily involved with the development of German experimental ammunition, particularly the 7.92mm kurz round for the MP42/43/44 assault rifles. Magdeburg was in East Germany and probably continued production under the communist regime as factory 05. Regards TonyE Tony. We are allowed to be ill tempered its in the forum rules.... I have only found the one german bullet with a mark. The marks on the base of all my British bullets are indistinct. Going back to the comment about the list of manufacturers, I will go back and check bases, certainly DM is a headstamp. I also have E / S / 5 / 12 E? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 This is made by Spandau ("S") as there is no German manufacturer that uses "E". DM is of course Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken, one of the other major producer. I checked in Eric Windisch's book "Die Militarpatronen Kaliber 7,9mm". He lists a M88 round made by Polte with the headstamp P 6 14 E, and another by DM headstamped DM 8 13 E, and reminded me that the "E" means "Einheitshulse", or "Standard" case for both rifles and machine guns In my post above I wrongly attributed "E" to "Eisen" for steel case. "SE" is the identifier for "Eisen" and E should have been "Einheitshulse". My only excuse was it was late and I had had a long day! BTW, thank you for your good grace re: ill temper! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 I bought a piece of what looks to be WW1 trench art recently, a gaming board made from very dense black wood. I bought it as the feet on the bottom were all truncated 1917 dated .303 rounds. However, two of them display marks I have not seen before. Marks read as follows: K 1917 VII K.N. 1917 VII K.N. 1917 VII B K.N. 1917 VII C K and K.N. I believe is Kynoch Nitro, 1917 the date, and VII for Mark 7 ammunition, but what do the B and C represent? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Andrew The K is as you say, Kynoch Ltd, Witton, Birmingham KN is Kings Norton Metals company of Kings Norton, Birmingham. KN were considered to be one of the highest quality producers and made 582,430,000 rounds of Mark VII ball in WWI. Because of their high quality they also made a lot of the special purpose ammunition for Air Service and these are what the other two rounds are. KN 1917 VIIB is the code for Buckingham incendiary ammunition for the RFC. There were three marks of Buckingham and a 1917 round would have been the Mark II with a pointed bullet similar in profile to the ordinary ball round. The Mark I was round nosed and the Mark III had a flat nose to punch a bigger hole in fabric. The last round I think you will find is actually KN 1917 VIIG not C. This is the SPG tracer for the RFC and was the most numerous and successful of the WWI tracers. It stayed in service as the Tracer G Mark I (New title from 1926) until 1939. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 BTW, thank you for your good grace re: ill temper! Regards TonyE Remember I work in a caring profession so I'm trained to make allowances for the moods and temper of the older person. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Remember I work in a caring profession so I'm trained to make allowances for the moods and temper of the older person. Mick So kind Michael! Remember too my missus is an NHS psychologist and any more cracks like that and I will send her over to therap you to within an inch of your life. All the best Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 The K is as you say, Kynoch Ltd, Witton, Birmingham KN is Kings Norton Metals company of Kings Norton, Birmingham. KN were considered to be one of the highest quality producers and made 582,430,000 rounds of Mark VII ball in WWI. Because of their high quality they also made a lot of the special purpose ammunition for Air Service and these are what the other two rounds are. KN 1917 VIIB is the code for Buckingham incendiary ammunition for the RFC. There were three marks of Buckingham and a 1917 round would have been the Mark II with a pointed bullet similar in profile to the ordinary ball round. The Mark I was round nosed and the Mark III had a flat nose to punch a bigger hole in fabric. The last round I think you will find is actually KN 1917 VIIG not C. This is the SPG tracer for the RFC and was the most numerous and successful of the WWI tracers. It stayed in service as the Tracer G Mark I (New title from 1926) until 1939. Having re-examined the base, you are quite right, the mark is a G and not a C! Thank you for that, I don't suppose you would have a picture of what the complete B and G marked rounds would have looked like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 But of course! I will probably have to post them seperately. First here is the Tracer SPG Mark VIIG. I am afraid it looks like any other .303. There were three Marks of Buckingham that saw service in WWI plus a fourth type that was uder development and eventually came into service in 1928. All worked on the same principle but differed in internal construction. The bullet was partially filled with phosphorous and sealed with a small hole drilled in the side of the bullet filled with solder. When the round was fired, the heat of the bullet in the bore melted the solder and allowedit to escape to atmosphere where it ignited on contact with the air. This is the Mark I (sorry but it is an old scan of a print - I must retake a digital of it) A nice condition Mark I round is worth over £100 today. More to follow..... Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 Here are the other types of Buckingham L to R., B Mark II, B Mark III and B Mark IV. Still more to come...... Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 18 January , 2007 Share Posted 18 January , 2007 Finally, here is a picture I have posted before of Mr.Buckingham firing his ammunition from a Lewis gun at Hythe. The smoke trail is the burning phosphorous escaping. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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