Help with Map

[Howard]

On 23/08/2016 at 13:34, SteveLT said:

Can anyone post a contact/reference that would allow me to check WW1 French Military Map references?

I have a reference for an initial burial site from which a great uncle was moved to a Compilation Cemetery at Marfaux near Reims.

The original site reference I have is 217 2 271 4. I (capital letter i )

 

Steve

This is from a map listed as "12 sheets pasted together. Shows fronts, units and dates, 8th, 21st and 50th British divs, 45th.and 22nd French Divs. and others. Various dates in May 1918. Hand layered. Quadrillage Kilometrique Systeme Lambert"

 

It shows position 217.2  271.4 in Lambert co-ordinates. I hope it helps.

 

Howard

[Howard]

On 25/08/2016 at 12:06, Howard said:

This is from a map listed as "12 sheets pasted together. Shows fronts, units and dates, 8th, 21st and 50th British divs, 45th.and 22nd French Divs. and others. Various dates in May 1918. Hand layered. Quadrillage Kilometrique Systeme Lambert"

 

It shows position 217.2  271.4 in Lambert co-ordinates. I hope it helps.

 

Howard

Steve.

Was this any use?

 

Howard

[laughton]

On 9/6/2015 at 10:19, TEW said:

I've found online Lambert to Lat/Long converters but I keep ending up in the Bay of Biscay!!!!

There are different Lambert projections, once a location is settled on we'll know which one is used for future use.

TEW

 

The exact same thing happened to me yesterday morning! Playing around a bit with the conversion programs I found this:

http://www.onlinemapcoordinatesconverter.com/

 

I am looking for Vailly-sur-Aisne which is on the same Soisson 33 map and in particular this location: 49°24'36.70"N 3°30'14.96"E (49.4102 3.5042)

 

When using the converter I found that you have to pick the destination system as “Lambert Conic Conformal Projection and the sub-system Lambert 93 (ellipsoid: WSG 84)" if you do not want to end up in the Bay of Biscay. I have not figured it all out yet, but we are working on it!

 

I found a map finally with the area in the bowels of the McMaster collection :

 

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A4323

Edited 3 November , 2016 by laughton

[CROONAERT]

2 hours ago, laughton said:

 

 

 

...I am looking for Vailly-sur-Aisne which is on the same Soisson 33 map and in particular this location: 49°24'36.70"N 3°30'14.96"E (49.4102 3.5042) ... ...I found a map finally with the area in the bowels of the McMaster collection...

 

 

A few map images of the area with better detail for you Richard...

 

 

[CROONAERT]

...

...

[laughton]

Thanks! Here is where we are at the moment on this issue. It is the last paragraph where we have the digital numbers that is the remaining stumbling block.

Quote

 

I found a map within the bowels of the McMaster Collection that has the area but it is called Soissons 22 but it has the right coordinate style – I think!

 

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A4323

 

Now if you look at this particular page in the Vailly COG-BR files you can see reference to this map:

 

http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2056540.JPG

 

 

Look at the second entry, as it is easier to see on the map, where it says the location is 1.H. 55 x 18 which if I am correct takes us to the square that has a “1” on the vertical access and “H” on the horizontal access, then I have to assume that the 55x18 are the internal grids.

 

 

If you look at the alternate scale it is in real LATITUDE and LONGITUDE, which I checked using the top left corner where it has 49°30'  3°0' which I entered into Google Earth as 49°30'00.00"N  3°00'00.00"E and it came out in the exact same place in the forest just north of Tracy-le-Mont (now known as Trace-le-Val). That means that each number on the left vertical access is 5’ (minutes) of LATITUDE and each number on the top horizontal access is 5’ (minutes) of LONGITUDE.

 

 

We are getting somewhere now as I checked a few other sheets and I can see that the GRID within the boxes is 100 x 100. I figured that out and confirmed it from this sheet:

 

 

http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2056538.JPG

 

 

The fellow in the top row was in SOUPIR German National Cemetery at Sheet 22 2.H 15x80 so if you go to the origin of the box 2 on the vertical and box H on the horizontal and then go across 15 of 100 and up 80 of 100 you end up in SOUPIR. That is also 49°24'23.68"N 3°35'43.73"E.

 

 

If you now wanted to take that to the LAMBERT COORDINATES you can use the online conversion tool here:

 

 

http://www.onlinemapcoordinatesconverter.com/

 

 

and enter those latitude and longitude numbers as the SOURCE COORDINATES and then pick LAMBERT CONIC CONFORMAL PROJECTION and then in the drop down box pick LAMBERT 93 (ellipsoid: WSG 84) and at the top of the page you can see your EASTING is 743216.372 and your NORTHING is 6923153.102 (in meters). This time the REVERSE CHECK worked as when I switched the SOURCE and DESTINATION entries so that those LAMBERT coordinates generated the Latitude/Longitude numbers I got a result of LATITUDE 49.406389 and LONGITUDE 3.595278 (49°24'23.00"N 3°35'43.00"E). I am so happy I did not end up back in the Bay of Biscay again!!

 

 

I am still having an issue with the digital reference points as shown in this COG-BR. Here is a sheet that specifically refers to VAILLY (which must be Vailly-sur-Aisne) and has the grid references as 193.8 x 298.7 on the COG-BR:

 

 

http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2056559.JPG

 

 

There is nothing in the LAMBERT system that provides those results. There is one obvious issue that where the coordinates are entered for the exhumation it is 193.98 x 298.7 but at the top of the page for the Vailly British Cemetery it is shown as 298.5 x 193.7 so one of the two entries is reversed?

 

 

I will post this on the GWF and see if we can get an answer. CROONAERT has responded to my earlier post and I see some new maps of the area. Maybe there are coordinates on the borders of those maps? One of the maps shows that the specific point is at Map?.Sector?.24.b.2.9

 

Edited 3 November , 2016 by laughton

[CROONAERT]

27 minutes ago, laughton said:

One of the maps shows that the specific point is at Map?.Sector?.24.b.2.9

 

The complete British trench map (G.S.G.S. 2742, 1:20,000 scale) reference for that spot is Sheet 75 NE 24.b.2.9 

[Phil Evans]

This response is mainly for Richard’s benefit, as he will probably be the only one who knows what I am talking about. However this thread is relevant to the discussion.

The Lambert-93 co-ordinates 738761 6920071 translate to Lat/Long 49.37897264 3.53362317. This was derived from the converter that you posted, although that was my final step, after I had proved everything else.

As I do not have Linesman, all my working out has been by Google Earth overlays and a ruler across the monitor, so there are small errors without doubt.

My starting point was to take the “Extrait cadastral” map and overlay it on GE. A marker was placed in the centre of the circle. I then overlaid the Soissons 22 sheet and derived the point 2.G 40 60. See attached screenshot. This puts us on the same footing as the early Burial Reports in the COG-BR for Vailly British Cemetery.

Thank you for compiling the COG-BR. That saved me time and patience.

For the remainder of the Burial Reports, which used the Lambert co-ordinate system, I had to be a bit more devious, as I still can’t find a gridded Soissons 33NE map online. This map, Braine-sur-Vesle, Sheet 161, which you will recognise, has a similar system, but is not quite right. I was not helped by the usual quality of map reading in the British Army. It was obvious from the Burial Reports that in several (a lot of) instances the co-ordinates had been reversed. To prove my theory, I compared the co-ordinates on the BRs of Vailly British Cemetery and all the small cemeteries that were cleared to it, with the co-ordinates measured off from Sheet 161. My thoughts were correct. Simply, the Northings remain the same, but the leading figure on the Easting requires to be reduced by one. The attached PDF shows the results.

For the exercise in hand, the co-ordinate of the original point becomes 295.15 (N) 195.2 (E).

It was at this point that I then went to the converter to check how close my overlaid origin was. I had to move it about 10-20 metres or so, which meant correcting my Sheet 22 co-ordinates to 2.G 40 58.

Phil

Lambert co-ords for Vailly cemetery concentrations.pdf