42 Brigade, 29 Battery, RFA 1914

[gdaughter]

Gunner Charles Lightfoot (67519) enlisted in Edinburgh on 21 Feb 1912 ,Royal Reg Arty (Rh& RFA), his Soldiers Small Book signed by a Major of No 6 Depot, RFA.

He moved to Topsham Barracks, Exeter, on 7 October, 1912.(Postcard showing Charles, 6 others and gun, posted 7/10)

He was killed near Brenelle (Aisne) on either 13th or 14th September, 1914.

His death certificate says Gnr 42/D.A.C, which I am told is something different.(This is the only mention of D.A.C I've come across)

CWWG says' no known grave', and he is remembered at La-Ferte-Sous- Jouarre.

His friend (later my step gfather) made a sketch showing hills, woods. 5 guns in row, and graves of horses & men.'' In loving memory of our comrades killed in action 2 miles NE of Brenelle at 12 noon, 14th Sept. 67519,Gnr C .Lightfoot, 25677 Sgt J Smith, Gnr Allen, (space)''

42 Brigade War Diary says on 13th marched '' to Brenelle and halted from about noon till 5.30 just off the road and west of it about 1/4 mile N of Brenelle The 29th Battery was brought into action but did not fire''. On 14th,'' 29th Battery was brought into action just N of the Chassemy-Brenelle Road, N of the A of Bois D'en Haut and the 41 Batt some 300 yards NW of it. The 29th Battery was heavily shelled''

An Exeter newspaper report of 1915 quotes PC Townhill ( also RFA/Topsham) saying Smith and Lightfoot were blown to atoms by a shell on the gun next to his.

Several others were killed on 13th. Gnr Allen may have died at Braine on 19th (or a coincidence re name)

So several anomalies! I'd much appreciate another's views.

Depot No 6 ? Would that be the barracks in Edinburgh, pre war ? Or Maryhill in Glasgow ( Small Book has 'Kelvingrove' written in it )

Would the other men in the photo have been moved to Topsham also ? At what point were recruits assigned to batteries etc ? Where else could I look ?

2 & 1/2 miles NE would be in direction of St Mard, so could my step -gf have made a mistake due to exhaustion, and meant NW ? Or was St mard involved at that time ?

Thank you.

[johnboy]

DAC could be Divisional Ammunition Column.

[johnboy]

Soldiers effects show him as dying 13/9/14. No description of death is given ie KIA , missing etc.

[johnboy]

Place of death is given as Brenelle [valley of the Ainse].

[Ron Clifton]

Hello gdaughter, and welcome to the Forum!

In 1914 No.6 Depot RFA was at Glasgow - no further geographical details given in the Army List.

It is possible that he was with 29 Battery at the beginning of the war, and at some point transferred either to 42nd Brigade Ammunition Column or to 3rd Divisional Ammunition Column. 42 Bde RFA was part of 3rd Division at the time.

Ron

[johnboy]

CWGC shows death 13/9/14

[battiscombe]

6 Depot was on the move in 1912 I believe. the May 1912 Army List has it at Newport [temporarily] includes a Major Ingham, Capt Younger.. .. by 1913 in Glasgow [Major Griffith]. This was new one as previously only 4 RFA depots I believe.

He may have moved to his battery in a draft from Exeter but which unit he was in 1912 needs to clarified.. if possible. May 1912 33rd brigade [137-138-139Bty] was in Exeter.. but there was a reorganisation in late 1913 when various batteries were renumbered [as Brigades reduced].. by 1914 33rd Bde was 32-33-36 Bty ... 42nd Brigade had changed from 29-40-45 Bty to 29-41-45 Bty, for example...

There was quite a lot of shuffling of men in August 1914 when the BEF Brigades were brought up to wartime strength.. so it needs to be confirmed when he actually joined 29th Bty.. as they would have acquired new men in the first weeks of mobilisation..

There was a casualty clearing station at Braisne, as I know my RFA grandfather was there in early October after being badly wounded,

are there names on the Topsham photo?

With some further checking I can see that at least 11 men in 137th Battery of 33rd Brigade in 1911 went to France with 42nd Brigade in August 1914.. including Sgt John Smith, so this perhaps further suggests Lightfoot had previously been in 33rd Bde and perhaps 137th Bty prewar.

[lostinspace]

"Kelvingrove" is possibly a reference to one of the ships that transported either 42 Bde. R.F.A. or 3 Division Ammunition Column to France in August. The ammunition column war diary doesn't list the ship(s) used, only that it embarked on the 19th at Southampton and landed at Boulogne on the 20th while the 42 Brigade war diary also indicates embarking at Southampton (17 Aug.) for Rouen (arriving on 19 Aug.) and notes that four ships were used but doesn't identify any of them. "Kelvingrove" was definitely used as a transport during that time period - here is a previous thread on the ship http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125079

Dave

[Phil Evans]

Possible position for 29th Battery as marked up below.

The full map can be found here.

Phil

[gdaughter]

Many thanks for an interesting reply. Charles jotted down various details in pencil, but I find them difficult to decipher, as they're very faded. With clues like yours I may make better progress ! Sadly there are no names on the photo sent from Topsham to Edinburgh, but presumably showing Scottish soldiers'' just a PC letting you know I arrived all safe after 20hrs journey.I am just going on riding drill''.

6 Depot was on the move in 1912 I believe. the May 1912 Army List has it at Newport [temporarily] includes a Major Ingham, Capt Younger.. .. by 1913 in Glasgow [Major Griffith]. This was new one as previously only 4 RFA depots I believe.

He may have moved to his battery in a draft from Exeter but which unit he was in 1912 needs to clarified.. if possible. May 1912 33rd brigade [137-138-139Bty] was in Exeter.. but there was a reorganisation in late 1913 when various batteries were renumbered [as Brigades reduced].. by 1914 33rd Bde was 32-33-36 Bty ... 42nd Brigade had changed from 29-40-45 Bty to 29-41-45 Bty, for example...

There was quite a lot of shuffling of men in August 1914 when the BEF Brigades were brought up to wartime strength.. so it needs to be confirmed when he actually joined 29th Bty.. as they would have acquired new men in the first weeks of mobilisation..

There was a casualty clearing station at Braisne, as I know my RFA grandfather was there in early October after being badly wounded,

are there names on the Topsham photo?

With some further checking I can see that at least 11 men in 137th Battery of 33rd Brigade in 1911 went to France with 42nd Brigade in August 1914.. including Sgt John Smith, so this perhaps further suggests Lightfoot had previously been in 33rd Bde and perhaps 137th Bty prewar.

[gdaughter]

Many thanks for an interesting reply. Charles jotted down various details in pencil, but I find them difficult to decipher, as they're very faded.

6 Depot was on the move in 1912 I believe. the May 1912 Army List has it at Newport [temporarily] includes a Major Ingham, Capt Younger.. .. by 1913 in Glasgow [Major Griffith]. This was new one as previously only 4 RFA depots I believe.

He may have moved to his battery in a draft from Exeter but which unit he was in 1912 needs to clarified.. if possible. May 1912 33rd brigade [137-138-139Bty] was in Exeter.. but there was a reorganisation in late 1913 when various batteries were renumbered [as Brigades reduced].. by 1914 33rd Bde was 32-33-36 Bty ... 42nd Brigade had changed from 29-40-45 Bty to 29-41-45 Bty, for example...

There was quite a lot of shuffling of men in August 1914 when the BEF Brigades were brought up to wartime strength.. so it needs to be confirmed when he actually joined 29th Bty.. as they would have acquired new men in the first weeks of mobilisation..

There was a casualty clearing station at Braisne, as I know my RFA grandfather was there in early October after being badly wounded,

are there names on the Topsham photo?

With some further checking I can see that at least 11 men in 137th Battery of 33rd Brigade in 1911 went to France with 42nd Brigade in August 1914.. including Sgt John Smith, so this perhaps further suggests Lightfoot had previously been in 33rd Bde and perhaps 137th Bty prewar.

Possible position for 29th Battery as marked up below.

Brenelle-Chassemy mark up.jpg

The full map can be found here.

Phil

Very many thanks, Phil. We visited Brenelle in the late 80s,but didn't have a decent map or gps with us, plus 2 small boys and a ferry to catch. The terrain looked similar to our sketch, but we knew we hadn't found the right spot.

[gdaughter]

"Kelvingrove" is possibly a reference to one of the ships that transported either 42 Bde. R.F.A. or 3 Division Ammunition Column to France in August. The ammunition column war diary doesn't list the ship(s) used, only that it embarked on the 19th at Southampton and landed at Boulogne on the 20th while the 42 Brigade war diary also indicates embarking at Southampton (17 Aug.) for Rouen (arriving on 19 Aug.) and notes that four ships were used but doesn't identify any of them. "Kelvingrove" was definitely used as a transport during that time period - here is a previous thread on the ship http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125079

Dave

Very many thanks, Dave. Very helpful. With your suggestion I was able to read my Gf's jottings, and yes,''17th, embarked Kelvingrove''

[gdaughter]

Hello gdaughter, and welcome to the Forum!

In 1914 No.6 Depot RFA was at Glasgow - no further geographical details given in the Army List.

It is possible that he was with 29 Battery at the beginning of the war, and at some point transferred either to 42nd Brigade Ammunition Column or to 3rd Divisional Ammunition Column. 42 Bde RFA was part of 3rd Division at the time.

Ron

Many thanks for your help. I'm still mulling over all the new information/suggestions.

[lostinspace]

I took a closer look at Lightfoot's book, posted above, and it looks to me like the only unit mentioned specifically is 42 Battery on 24 Aug., at the head of the page and again under the same date in the middle of the page. Doesn't make much sense, unless he transferred into 42 Brigade from 42 Battery as they (42 Battery) were in Ireland (Cahir) before the war while 42 Brigade was located at Bulford. About all I can make out, other than the reference to embarking and disembarking from S.S. Kelvingrove, is at the bottom of the page where there is the reference to "rest camp", which doesn't make much sense either since during the retreat I doubt any unit had the 28th through the 30th of August "off". Quite the mystery.

Dave

[Phil Evans]

His medal index card is consistent with 29th Battery, 42nd Brigade.

The notes in the pay book, when compared with the 42nd Brigade diary starts off OK, but after the 25th August, I am having problems reconciling it at the moment. Unfortunately, the appendices are also missing from the diary (as usual).

My interpretation of the notes:

16 Aug - Left Bul(ford) 2 o'clock

17 Aug - Embarked Kelvingrove

18 Aug Sailed to France

19 Aug Disembarked at Rouen

20Aug - Rest(?) started for front

21 Aug - Reached ....(?)

22 Aug - Moved to front

23 Aug - (illegible)

24 Aug - 42nd Bty(??) .......(?)

25 Aug - Retired in to France

26 Aug - Lost two(?) guns

27 Aug - Retired to get reinforced

28 Aug to 30 Aug - Rest camp

The Brigade were out of the heat by the 28th and although still on the march, were billeting overnight.

The CRA diary does mention the other divisional artillery brigades losing guns on the 26th, but not the 42nd Brigade.

Phil

[Jerome Buttet]

Hello,

I'm very glad to read your post. I have a very good new, especially for gdaughter . I've found the first Charles Lightfoot 's grave. I'm teatcher at Soissons and I work about graffiti.

The glyph says :

Here lies Sergt Smith and 3 gunners, 15 SEPT 1914. 29 Baty RFA.

I'm writing an article with a archeological Friend about the grave.

Dear Gdaughter, can you send me a mail ?

Best regards,

Jérôme

[johnboy]

Hello Jerome and welcome

You might have to make a minimum number of posts to be able to send and receive messages. Try and send a message to gdaughter by clicking on name at the left of her post and then 'send me a message'.

If it does not work come back here and tell us. We should soon be able to get your number of posts up!

[gdaughter]

His medal index card is consistent with 29th Battery, 42nd Brigade.

The notes in the pay book, when compared with the 42nd Brigade diary starts off OK, but after the 25th August, I am having problems reconciling it at the moment. Unfortunately, the appendices are also missing from the diary (as usual).

My interpretation of the notes:

16 Aug - Left Bul(ford) 2 o'clock

17 Aug - Embarked Kelvingrove

18 Aug Sailed to France

19 Aug Disembarked at Rouen

20Aug - Rest(?) started for front

21 Aug - Reached ....(?)

22 Aug - Moved to front

23 Aug - (illegible)

24 Aug - 42nd Bty(??) .......(?)

25 Aug - Retired in to France

26 Aug - Lost two(?) guns

27 Aug - Retired to get reinforced

28 Aug to 30 Aug - Rest camp

The Brigade were out of the heat by the 28th and although still on the march, were billeting overnight.

The CRA diary does mention the other divisional artillery brigades losing guns on the 26th, but not the 42nd Brigade.

Phil

Many thanks,Phil. Very helpful.

I took a closer look at Lightfoot's book, posted above, and it looks to me like the only unit mentioned specifically is 42 Battery on 24 Aug., at the head of the page and again under the same date in the middle of the page. Doesn't make much sense, unless he transferred into 42 Brigade from 42 Battery as they (42 Battery) were in Ireland (Cahir) before the war while 42 Brigade was located at Bulford. About all I can make out, other than the reference to embarking and disembarking from S.S. Kelvingrove, is at the bottom of the page where there is the reference to "rest camp", which doesn't make much sense either since during the retreat I doubt any unit had the 28th through the 30th of August "off". Quite the mystery.

Dave

Many thanks, Dave. Lots to disentangle !

[gdaughter]

Hello,

I'm very glad to read your post. I have a very good new, especially for gdaughter . I've found the first Charles Lightfoot 's grave. I'm teatcher at Soissons and I work with graffiti.

The glyph says :

Here lies Sergt Smith and 3 gunners, 15 SEPT 1914. 29 Baty RFA.

I'm writing an article with a archeological Friend about the grave.

Dear Gdaughter, can you send me a mail ?

Best regards,

Jérôme

Dear Jerome, This news is amazing. About a month ago, somebody ( you ? But I think not.) wrote in the Edinburgh Evening News on Charles'' In memorium' page, that the grave had been found near Brenelle, but left no details. My step grandfather's sketch of the guns,& graves gave the names Lightfoot,Smith & Allen (and space for more)A list of those who died on the 13th (http://firstworldwaronthisday.blogspot.co.uk) gives 47578 gnr John Adams,65384 Gnr Frederick Henry Blyth,67519 Gnr Charles Lightfoot, & 25677 Serj John Smith--all 42Bde, 29th Bty,RFA. No Allen, but a William Allen (67726) is buried at Braine Community Cemetery( of 129 Bty ?)having died on 19th Sept

I would love to know more, please.

Best Regards Sue

[Jerome Buttet]

Hello,

I will go to the Braine Cemetery to take a photo of the grave. Yes, I wrote in the Edinburgh Evening News on Charles'' In memorium' page.

Thanks to Johnboy for the advice.

You can see the Allen's grave here :

https://twitter.com/allen1mark/status/513091326800568322

I don't know how to insert a photo in a post ...

Best regards,

Jérôme

[Loicbettendorf]

hello, i live in Chassemy 

[lostinspace]

20 hours ago, Loicbettendorf said:

hello, i live in Chassemy 

Thanks very much for the above photos. Could I ask where the monument is located in relation to Chassemy? I'm wondering if the remains of the 29 Battery casualties are still in the vicinity (highly unlikely as that may be) also, a location might give some indication about where the battery was posted on 14 September.
Dave

[Loicbettendorf]

Worry for my very bad english....

The monument is a stone-pit between Chassemy and Brenelle 

[lostinspace]

Looks like the position of the battery (post number nine) is about right, thanks. Don't worry about bad English, it's much better than my non-existent French!

Dave

[Loicbettendorf]

Yes it's the right position