SteveMarsdin Posted 23 July , 2015 Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Good morning, I was asked to help identify this bayonet (from photos) but I know very little about arms. Can anyone point me in the right direction from this photo of the grip ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 July , 2015 Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Good morning, I was asked to help identify this bayonet (from photos) but I know very little about arms. Can anyone point me in the right direction from this photo of the grip ? Not quite my period, and a fair few possibilities (any markings?), but off-hand looks like one of the mid-19th GB sword bayonets to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 23 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Thanks Trajan, Not WW1 so outside the scope of the GWF; I won't ask for more photos. I think it looks similar to a Whitworth or Snider. Normally I get to see them before they catalogue them but this time they've not bothered, just listing it as a "bayonet" !!! Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 23 July , 2015 Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Only looking at it on my phone screen, would be easier if we had a pic of the mortise slot but due to height of the muzzzlw ring would hazard a guess at 1853, 1858 or whitworth (mortise slot could easily nail it tho) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 July , 2015 Share Posted 23 July , 2015 ... due to height of the muzzzlw ring would hazard a guess at 1853, 1858 or whitworth (mortise slot could easily nail it tho) There you go! Sawdoc, you around or on holiday? Sent yo a PM a month or so back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 23 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Thanks Trajan and saw-doc, I'll try and get some better photos and post them. The bayonet's being sold at auction on Saturday and I won't get to see it until then. Many thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 July , 2015 Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Good morning, I was asked to help identify this bayonet (from photos) but I know very little about arms. Can anyone point me in the right direction from this photo of the grip ? Steve, Based on the grip covering material, the number and the layout of the grip rivets, it could be a British Pattern 1853 Artillery Sword Bayonet, 2nd Type. This model used a rivet to secure the locking bolt Leaf Spring ( which is on the other side of the grip shown in your photograph ) and your photograph appears to show only rivets, whereas subsequent models like the 1858 Artillery Sword Bayonet, and the 1856 - 1858 Sword Bayonets used a screw to secure the Leaf Spring. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 23 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Thanks LF, I'll try and post a better photo if I get chance to take one on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 July , 2015 Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Thanks LF, I'll try and post a better photo if I get chance to take one on Saturday. Steve, A photograph of the other side of the grip, the blade and any blade markings would be most helpful. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 July , 2015 Share Posted 23 July , 2015 ... it could be a British Pattern 1853 Artillery Sword Bayonet, 2nd Type. This model used a rivet to secure the locking bolt Leaf Spring ( which is on the other side of the grip shown in your photograph ) and your photograph appears to show only rivets, whereas subsequent models like the 1858 Artillery Sword Bayonet, and the 1856 - 1858 Sword Bayonets used a screw to secure the Leaf Spring. Thanks for that information LF. I know very little about how to tell the difference between all these mid 19th century types, so nice to have that bit in the mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 July , 2015 Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Thanks for that information LF. I know very little about how to tell the difference between all these mid 19th century types, so nice to have that bit in the mind... Trajan, Hopefully, additional photographs will help to confirm Steve's type of bayonet. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 July , 2015 Share Posted 23 July , 2015 Only looking at it on my phone screen, would be easier if we had a pic of the mortise slot but due to height of the muzzzlw ring would hazard a guess at 1853, 1858 or whitworth (mortise slot could easily nail it tho) Alec knows his stuff. The major clue here is the raised muzzle-ring which indicates that this sword-bayonet was made for a Rifle which featured the bayonet "bar on band". This narrows it down considerably, as the bulk of the bayonets in this period were of "bar on barrel" construction. So I would lean towards the P1858 bayonet for the Short Rifle. As Aleck mentioned, the other contender could be the Sword-bayonet for the Whitworth rifle. The difference is in the shape of the mortice slot, with the Whitworth being circular. The other caveat that I would add is that many earlier model bayonets were later modified to fit other rifles by bushing the muzzle-ring. So then you may have a converted hybrid. Unfortunately the number of rivets showing on left-hand side grips is not a discerning factor, as they ALL had 4 rivets on that side regardless of how the leaf-spring was attached. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 Steve, Any additional photographs you can provide, will greatly assist in identifying your model of bayonet. Here are some photographs of a similar bayonet from my Collection, a Pattern 1860 Sword Bayonet with a shaped, curved ' Yataghan ' 22.75 inch blade. So firstly, please let us know the shape of your bayonet's blade, is it straight or is it the curved shaped ' Yataghan ' type. Another feature of my bayonet, is it has a ' Bar on Barrel ' type of muzzle ring, as opposed to a ' Bar on Band ' type. On the ' Bar on Barrel ' muzzle ring, as you can see from my bayonet, there is no space between the muzzle ring and where it joins the blade tang at the back of the grip, whereas on the ' Bar on Band ' muzzle ring there is an noticeable space between the muzzle ring and the blade tang. Unfortunately, the angle of your photograph makes it impossible for anyone to say with any certainty, if your bayonet is a ' Bar on Band ' or a ' Bar on Barrel ' type. A good clear photograph of your bayonet's muzzle ring where it joins the blade tang will help in narrowing down the possible age of your bayonet and if it is ' Bar on Barrel ' or ' Bar on Band ' type. Also, look at the Locking Bolt Leaf Spring, and see if it is secured to the pommel with a screw or a rivet, on my bayonet a screw has been used, with the change from rivet to screw coming in around 1858. Finally, look for any markings on either side of your bayonet's blade ricasso, the mortice slot or the blade's spine. The overall length of my bayonet and it's leather scabbard, which has a black metal locket and chape, is 28 inches. With so little information coming from your original photograph, all anyone can do at this point, is offer a guess as to your bayonet's type, and hopefully with more good photographs and additional information, it should be possible to accurately identify it's actual type, whatever model that may be. My first photograph shows a close up of the ' Bar on Barrel ' muzzle ring, and note there is no space between the muzzle ring and the blade tang at the back of the grip, not clearly shown in your photograph. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 The Locking Bolt Leaf Spring, secured to the grip with a screw, rather than a rivet. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 The type of Mortise Slot used on a bayonet of that period, will also help in it's identification. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 Look for any blade ricasso, blade tang or blade spine inspection or W^D markings. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 Queen Victoria's Royal Crown and ' VR ' Royal Cypher on the blade's ricasso. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 The long curved ' Yataghan ' blade in it's scabbard. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 LF, real nice blade you have their my friend, puts my examples to shame but as my objective was to get brit colonial blades from mid 1800s to present day, dont tend to focus on mint examples. Steves bayonet looks to have a raised muzzle ring on my phone screen, so I reckon that the P1853 2nd pattern is certainly a contender as it has a raised muzzle ring, so does S/Ss P1858 & whitworth (whitworth being the easiest to identify via the round slot). I am away from my bayonets right now but nearly sure the P1853 has a slightly lower muzzle ring & longer mortise slot than the P1858, cant remember how the leaf springs on each were attatched but I am sure you will be correct. S/S, you could be right as mortise slot looks short but looking at the pic on a crap samsung S2 screen it is difficult to tell, guess we will just have to wait on further pics. Trajan, back this weekend, thought I had replied but will recheck emails & get back to you mate (some nice new additions you have there bud ) Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 LF, real nice blade you have their my friend, puts my examples to shame but as my objective was to get brit colonial blades from mid 1800s to present day, dont tend to focus on mint examples. Steves bayonet looks to have a raised muzzle ring on my phone screen, so I reckon that the P1853 2nd pattern is certainly a contender as it has a raised muzzle ring, Aleck, Thanks for your comments, they are much appreciated. It would have been nice if those mid-1800s bayonets had Pattern markings on their blades ! As it is, and based on Steve's photo, all I could do was offer a pure guess as to the model shown and as you correctly say, it could be one of several models. Hopefully, with some more information and photographs from Steve, we should be able to work out between us which model it actually is. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 Thanks Trajan, Not WW1 so outside the scope of the GWF... Well, not necessarily so! SS had a thread going, now locked, that included mid- and late 19th century sword bayonets used in the GW by colonial forces - see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=162224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 The long curved ' Yataghan ' blade in it's scabbard. Thanks for posting that and the other great photographs! Not my collecting field, but nice to have such detailed views for future reference. Trajan, back this weekend, thought I had replied but will recheck emails & get back to you mate (some nice new additions you have there bud ) And I am willing to bet that you have quite a few to "show and tell" over the summer - or are you, like me, obligated to go on a family holiday...???!!! ... It would have been nice if those mid-1800s bayonets had Pattern markings on their blades ! Too true! When this thread was opened I thought to meself - "This should be straightforward - where's me S&R?" And then I saw the multitudes of GB types that it could be, so never bothered to check what else there might be (e.g., Werndl's, Martini's, etc..) and just left it as 'Mid-19th century"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 24 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 July , 2015 Thanks to you all for your contributions. As you may know from previous threads, although not my main line of work, I help out at an auction (usually in the role of porter !) which means I sometimes get to see interesting lots. Unfortunately I'm only helping on the day of the sale (Saturday)so won't get to take any extra photos until then or post them until Sunday. I've learnt a lot already from your posts and hope to get you the photos that will allow you to confirm the identification. Regards, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 Just taking this bayonet identification the one step further ... you really have to look closely at the clues on offer and then work with what you know. So I have enhanced the original photo a bit, as it was quite dark. And then highlighted the 2 visible points which can help with the identification here. On the crossguard we can see that the muzzle-ring is raised up from the hilt, as has already been mentioned. So indicative for a "bar on band" Rifle. And then regarding the mortice slot, we can just make out the hint of a "short lead" forward of the main T-slot. This signifies this is an earlier design. Unfortunately these are points of identification which do not correlate (ie. they are not supposed to go together) so this example may be a conversion. The upgrading of the older bayonets and conversion to suit the newer Rifle models was quite commonplace in British service with nothing thrown out. To try and track the 'pedigree', we have the "short lead" clue which points to either a P1853 Artillery Bayonet (2nd Type) or a P1856 Infantry Bayonet. But then the "raised muzzle-ring" clue points towards it being a later type "bar on band" sword-bayonet such as the P1858 for the improved Short Rifle. So to cut a long story short, this is a tricky one to identify without further photos. But even then I think it will turn out to be a conversion or 'hybrid' type. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 26 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 July , 2015 I managed to get some more photos, which will hopefully lead to a positive indentification: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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