trajan Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Ah, heelball... Haven't thought about that stuff since my brass-rubbing days - which were so long ago that you actually rub the real brass as opposed to a resin cast! But, yes, that would explain it: those brown scabbards in storage were overlooked when the order to blacken came out - although the one of mine certainly did not escape being 'waxed'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 4 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Just to round it off, another P.'07 this time by Remington dated November 1915. One of the scarcer makers - 100,000! The scabbard is also by Remington and I have to admit that it originally came from a Patt.13 that I bought solely for the scabbard. The difference in condition is apparent. Incidentally Trajan, although you rightly refer to 'London Brown' my experience is that this covers a multitude of shades from Chestnut to Near black, which is why the scabbards were blackened in 1926; for uniformity. No doubt the tribesmen on the N.W. Frontier were suitably impressed.. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 July , 2015 Share Posted 6 July , 2015 Just to round it off, another P.'07 this time by Remington dated November 1915. One of the scarcer makers - 100,000! ... The difference in condition is apparent. Incidentally Trajan, although you rightly refer to 'London Brown' my experience is that this covers a multitude of shades from Chestnut to Near black, which is why the scabbards were blackened in 1926; for uniformity. No doubt the tribesmen on the N.W. Frontier were suitably impressed.. - SW Very nice too! Yes, I had gathered that London Brown covered a multitude of shades... Wonder if the old Kiwi boot polish had one like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 6 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 July , 2015 Harking back to the late Sanderson '07 with the U.S. scabbard, I found another one yesterday with a 1915 Sanderson in it, marked to the Gurkha Rifles. I think that Jewell Belting Co. made the leather bodies of these 'J' marked scabbards and probably assembled them but sub-contracted the metalwork to the company which was using the WJ/M in a diamond trade mark. We know that Jewell made '07 scabbards - so where are they if not the ones we are discussing?? I also attach a full view of the Chapman bayonet in the Enfield scabbard with the South Australian stamps.. - SW P.S. You can't beat Kiwi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 July , 2015 Share Posted 9 July , 2015 Harking back to the late Sanderson '07 with the U.S. scabbard, I found another one yesterday with a 1915 Sanderson in it, marked to the Gurkha Rifles. I think that Jewell Belting Co. made the leather bodies of these 'J' marked scabbards and probably assembled them but sub-contracted the metalwork to the company which was using the WJ/M in a diamond trade mark. We know that Jewell made '07 scabbards - so where are they if not the ones we are discussing?? I also attach a full view of the Chapman bayonet in the Enfield scabbard with the South Australian stamps.. - SW P.S. You can't beat Kiwi! Another nice crème de la crème find there SW! Envious? Moi? But seriously, congratulations on a real rarity in excellent displayable condition. And it certainly needs no 'kiwi-ing'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 10 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2015 Changing nationalities for a moment - here is a better view of the S98nA with the name of the finder stamped thereon discussed previously. Looks quite nice I think and shows the damage caused when kneeling with an empty scabbard, as well as a natural leather frog. - Weyersberg Kirschbaum & Cie. 1907. Always thankful for the approbation of an expert, Trajan, but better to come. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 10 July , 2015 Share Posted 10 July , 2015 Some seriously nice blades there Sommewalker, you have me salivating my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 July , 2015 Share Posted 10 July , 2015 Some seriously nice blades there Sommewalker, you have me salivating my friend Same here Aleck - and good to see you back on line! I'm willing a pound to a penny though that you have accumulated a fair few nice ones since you last posted - as I have, but I have to admit that SW's show-and-tells far outclass most of my specimens of this, that, and the other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 20 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2015 Here you are then Sawdoc! An unissued Patt. 1907 in a scabbard Mark 1. The bayonet was made by RSAF Enfield and is dated July 1911. The scabbard is also by Enfield in 1908. Interestingly the ricasso lacks the Sovereigns cypher, only the Crown. Although Edward VII died in May 1910 his successor was not crowned until 22nd June 1911 so presumably the new stamps had not yet been issued at the date of inspection. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 July , 2015 Share Posted 20 July , 2015 ... An unissued Patt. 1907 in a scabbard Mark 1. ... Interestingly the ricasso lacks the Sovereigns cypher, only the Crown. Although Edward VII died in May 1910 his successor was not crowned until 22nd June 1911 so presumably the new stamps had not yet been issued at the date of inspection. - SW Lovely example, as is only to be expected from your collection! And a very interesting point about the lack of the Sovereigns cypher - neat reminder that the Kings (and Queens) of chose their 'Royal' name about the time they were crowned, and it does not have to be the name by which they were generally known beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 21 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2015 Trajan - glad you liked it. Here is the Ks 98 with it's correct scabbard as mentioned at the start of this blog. Erfurt Arsenal with Prussian inspection stamp for 1910. Crossguard and scabbard marked K.S.9730. Probably captured in German South-West Africa. Quite a few apparently turned up in South Africa as they were the occupying force. - Not as nice as others I've had but now more difficult to find. You can just make out the fraktur mark on the frog stud. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 21 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2015 Here is the other side. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 July , 2015 Share Posted 21 July , 2015 Nice example, with original leather grips! The Erfurt KShutztruppen marked ones are certainly very difficult to get hold of... Even harder, though, are the ones marked for the other colonies, plus balloon units and the like! My single example of a kS 98 is a Horster example, otherwise unmarked, lacking one grip and most of the other, and with the saw-teeth badly ground down, but not entirely removed. Somewhere I have a provisional listing of the 'unit' markings / numberings on these KS examples that expanded on Carter, and I concluded from this that the bayonets were sent out there and then later numbered and marked in batches. See, for example, Carter II, p.143, with the latest year recorded being a W/13, with '5369', and the earliest, a W/02, with '10037', with the highest number being a W/10, '11196'. Yours, a W/10, with '9730', conforms with the 'haphazard' numbering system. I wonder, perhaps these bayonet numbers do match rifle serials? But I somehow doubt it, as there has never been any hint on this. I need to check further, but off-hand, I think that the kS were divided between quite a number of sub-stations - so perhaps a an order was issued in about 1913/14 that each one should number its bayonets, each sub-station being assigned a block of numbers? Pure speculation, I know, and I'll be happy to accept another that might explain the 'haphazard' system that exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 13 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2015 Returning to British Bayonets: - a Patt. '03 in a Land Pattern 1888 scabbard. The bayonet was manufactured at RSAF Enfield in January 1904. The pommel bears the stamps of the 4th Battn., The Bedfordshires. The scabbard is also Enfield made, in 1901, but the serial numbers do not match with the bayonet. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 13 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2015 This is how the bayonet is usually displayed, mounted on a stub of a S.M.L.E. with a Cup, grenade No.23 Mark 1. Please note that this is not a launcher, nor a discharger, nor part of a firearm. It is a safety device and plays no part in the actual discharge of the grenade, which can equally well be launched without it by using the bayonet. The grenade is also unusual in the pattern of the body casting and the centre piece is cast, not fabricated, in a light coloured brass, which I have seen before on 'Dunkirk' manufactured mills bombs. It has a slotted striker and a cast iron base plug marked J G W (James Gibbons, Ironmonger, St. James' Works, Wolverhampton?) and dated January 1917. The body is marked J.P.M. So, something for both the bomb and bayonet boys. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 August , 2015 Share Posted 13 August , 2015 That blade is in excellent condition! An enviable piece! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 18 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2015 Back to the enemy. The Sg 71/84 is a difficult piece to find in good condition. The short knife blade was not introduced because of any insight into the future but because the M.1871/84 rifle had a tubular magazine beneath the barrel which, when loaded, made the rifle muzzle heavy, so the short bayonet was introduced to compensate. Nevertheless, certain elite regiments retained their M.71 sword bayonets, despite the weight. However the French adoption of a small-bore, smokeless propellant, magazine rifle in 1886 immediately rendered the new German rifle and bayonet obsolete. Many were then issued to training units, some to second line units, and large quantities sold out of service. The bayonets were often retained for wear as sidearms by N.C.O.s. Since the rifle and bayonets were still in production when the new Gewehr M.1888 was adopted they are often found with the unit markings of these training units. In this case the Recruiting Depot of the 43rd Infantry,(6th Ostpreusisches). It was made by Alex Coppel et Cie in 1888. - The rifle made in the same year by Amberg Arsenal was also issued to a training unit, the Ersatz Battalion of the Bavarian First Jager Regiment. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 18 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2015 Despite comments in print to the contrary the M.1871/84 was not used by the German Army in combat during the GW although the bayonet was. The sole exception seems to be the Imperial German Navy who used them when in action against the Chinese in the Boxer rebellion and the siege of the Legations in 1900. It happens that many of the Chinese were also armed with Gewehr 1871/84 borrowed from the Imperial Chinese Army and the Germans were able to use their captured ammunition. A small advantage when all other of the Multi-National troops involved in the attempt to lift the siege were armed with modern small-bore smokeless rifles such as the Lee-Metford and Arisaka. Make nice shooters now though! SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 18 August , 2015 Share Posted 18 August , 2015 Sommewalker, Excellent photos and information - thanks for sharing. Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 August , 2015 Share Posted 19 August , 2015 A very nice example of a S71/84, the inspiration for all subsequent knife-bayonets! SW, you will know, but others may not, that this example looks to be a so-called 'a.A.' version, and that Coppel were one of the principal makers of this type in 1888. Note also that according to regulations current in 1914, this bayonet was standard issue for medics also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 19 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2015 Trajan - I wasn't aware that German Medics carried any arms at all. Is this not contrary to the International Conventions on the use of arms? I know that I.A.M.C. Surgeons in India carried sidearms in both Wars as I once owned a Webley-Greener 0.455in revolver named to one, but this was a rather different kind of war from that in Europe. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 August , 2015 Share Posted 19 August , 2015 Trajan - I wasn't aware that German Medics carried any arms at all. Is this not contrary to the International Conventions on the use of arms? ... Indeed they did! And as I understand it, both then and today medics can carry weapons for personal protection. Be that as it may, the regulations for 1914 clearly specify the equipment for the Prussian Infantry 'Sanitaetatsmanschaften' as being the 'Pistole '08' and the 'Seitengewehr 71/84 bz. Infanterie-Offizierdegen', and adds that these men were to be trained in the use of the Gew.98; regulations for their Bavarian peers also specify the Pistol '08, but instead of the S.71/84, the 'Infanterie-Saebel 38 bz Infanterie-Officier Saebel'. I have certainly seen photographs of these guys with pistols and also, IIRC, at least one with the man carrying a Gew.98 or 88. Others who carried the S.71/84 in 1914 (NCO's apart) were the medics in the 'Bekleidungsaemter', but the medics in most other units seem to have had the Pistol '08 and/or a sabre or 'degen' of some kind. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 19 August , 2015 Share Posted 19 August , 2015 Has anyone come across this manufacturer of Pattern 1907s before? Not actually made during the First World War, but due to a serious shortage in the Second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 19 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2015 New one on me, but I'm not really a bayonet collector - South African? - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 19 August , 2015 Share Posted 19 August , 2015 Sommewalker, Nice looking 71/84 rifle, bayonet & scabbard you have there mate, all look to be in excellent condition, green with envy I have a 71/84 rifle that I bought nearly a year ago in bits, Covered in dried on grease etc, few dings to woodwork but shuld clean up ok if i ever get the time IIRC SAR is a rare WW2 made P1907 by South African Railways Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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