trajan Posted 2 May , 2015 Share Posted 2 May , 2015 Cheers Nwhite! Can we see the other side? And the spine? What year is that? W/o checking, I though Amberg stopped making the 98/05's in late 1915? (ma-in-law is here, so access to magic box and GWF time and books is limited: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 May , 2015 Share Posted 2 May , 2015 Julian Many thanks. Will try and secure this one. It's a steel scabbard. TT Steel would be exactly right - the Prussians reluctantly agreed to these in 1915 after the leather shortage became problematic. So, you may have a nice match there! (Me, jealous? Naaaah.... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 2 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2015 Have yet to secure. Have sent e mail indicating my desire to buy. I await confirmation. It is a bank hol weekend. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 3 May , 2015 Share Posted 3 May , 2015 Cheers Nwhite! Can we see the other side? And the spine? What year is that? W/o checking, I though Amberg stopped making the 98/05's in late 1915? (ma-in-law is here, so access to magic box and GWF time and books is limited: )Ask and ye shall receive. As should be obvious, it is nA, with no ears and a flashguard. The reblue is, to my understanding an artifact of use in the Great War take #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 May , 2015 Share Posted 3 May , 2015 I think I can see the possibility of a 1920 stamp just poking through the crud on the crossguard, which is often seen on the inter-war blued-blade S98/05's. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 May , 2015 Share Posted 3 May , 2015 I think I can see the possibility of a 1920 stamp just poking through the crud on the crossguard, which is often seen on the inter-war blued-blade S98/05's. Cheers, S>S Well spotted, SS, it does look like there is something there and it could be the 1 in front of 1920. However, the examples that I know of (and the one that I have) that are 1920 marked have the 1920 the other way around - that is, they read '1920' when seen in a scabbard, and this one seems to read the other way round, from the pommel end. I think I might have somewhere a copy of the regulations on this but I'm not sure if it indicates which way the marking has to read. That aside, I did wonder if it might be one of those so-called 'Bavarian-style' serial numbers, but the only one of those that I have is also the other way round... Incidentally, a nice clear complete spine marking including that 'fraktur' mark! And, just to add that I have been cataloguing a whole bunch of Bavarian markings recently and I have a feeling there are quite a few where the monarch's initial does not match the year, although that's not the case here... Oh, forgot to add: yes, 'blueing' - said to be typical of post GW bayonets; but if this one entered Reichsheer service and stayed there into the mid-1920's then it should have a Reichsheer serial on the crossguard - perhaps that is what is there? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 3 May , 2015 Share Posted 3 May , 2015 I hit the crossguard with some 0000 steel wool and a bit of polish. Just the 1, guys. No evidence of other numbers, or any on the other side, either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 May , 2015 Share Posted 3 May , 2015 I hit the crossguard with some 0000 steel wool and a bit of polish. Just the 1, guys. No evidence of other numbers, or any on the other side, either... Now that one represents a problem... Was the '1' the right way up though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 3 May , 2015 Share Posted 3 May , 2015 Point to the sky, point of 1 to the sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 May , 2015 Share Posted 4 May , 2015 ... I think I might have somewhere a copy of the regulations on this but I'm not sure if it indicates which way the marking has to read. ... a Reichsheer serial on the crossguard - perhaps that is what is there? Hmmm, well, the relevant documentation for these 1920 marks was promulgated on 1 August 1920, through Reichs.Heers. Inspek.Infanterie Nr. 657/7.20.j.2.(W2) IV. It states that this was to be done "so schnell als moeglich" ("as quickly as possible")(!), and that the '1920' stamp must be done with "Schrifthohe = 3.1 mm - Zahlen müssen scharf aufgeschlagen sein!" - "Script height = 3.1. mm = the numbers must be strongly struck". The document includes an example of how such stamps should be applied on various weapons authorised for service use, including a "Seitengewehr 84/98", a "Seitengewehr 98/05", and an "Artillerie-Saebel", specifying that they must be on the "Parierstange -aeussere Seite" ("Crossguard, outer side") and showing these as being read left to right with the blade down and hilt up. Point to the sky, point of 1 to the sky. Odd...! None of the regular German markings I have come across are done that 'upside-down' way! And that aside, it can't be a Reichswehr stamp as these have a similar overall format and sequence to the imperial stamping system... You have a nice little puzzle there! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2015 Rummaging thro my garage I came across a bayonet I am sure is a 84/98! Forgot I had it! It is a 1915 Erfurt blade with sawback removed. The scabbard is WW1 configuration. However the pommel differs from most as it looks much more "eagle headed" than those on the web. There is a more pronounced beak if you get my meaning. Not chromed etc? Is this simply a variant? parade? Or old stick being used? The top of the blade before the ground saw back is marked crown/W/15 crown squiggle. The side blade crown Erfurt. No other markings. Leather washer at top of scabbard / blade. Paid peanuts for this years ago. Forgot I had it and been 15 years buried in garage. Not rusted mind! Help explain the pommel please? Thanks TT Ps told you I am not s bayonet chap but am I turning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2015 More...it has no flash guard and the bottom of the handle has a reversed "quillon" like the 98/05? So not a 84/98 doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 May , 2015 Share Posted 4 May , 2015 Rummaging thro my garage I came across a bayonet I am sure is a 84/98! Forgot I had it! It is a 1915 Erfurt blade with drawback removed. The scabbard is WW1 configuration. However the pommel differs from most as it looks much more "eagle headed" than those on the web. There is a more pronounced beak if you get my meaning. Not chromed etc? Is this simply a variant? parade? Or old stick being used? ... The leather washer is correct for a dress bayonet, but I don't think that these dress ones had the imperial stamps on the blade spine, and the eagle head pommel sounds like an S.1898... Photographs? EDIT: Your Post 62 came in as I was writing... If a sawback removed then probably a service bayonet, which ties in with the W/15 and the 'squiggly' fraktur mark - and with an eagle-headed pommel? Sounds like a kS.98? Erfurt made these certainly in as late as 1914... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2015 You've nailed it. Just googled and confirmed. Shame sawback ground down. Would this be done in 1918 according to the order given to remove. Google indicates a lot were made for service in SW Africa. Would they also be issued on Western Front. One source says for machine gunners and other specialists. artillery? Oh bayonets. Frustrate me! TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 May , 2015 Share Posted 4 May , 2015 You've nailed it. Just googled and confirmed. Shame sawback ground down. Would this be done in 1918 according to the order given to remove. ... Google indicates a lot were made for service in SW Africa. Would they also be issued on Western Front. One source says for machine gunners and other specialists. artillery? ... Oh bayonets. Frustrate me! Happy to have that one sorted - I need to check but yes off-hand, KS 98 did go to others besides the colonial troops. I have one with a sawback that may have been a dress version. Your leather washer indicates that it became a dress bayonet at some point but it must have been a service one before as sawback removed . Does the press-stud still work? Maybe a decommissioned one brought back into wear after 1918? My example has bakelite grips suggesting post GW use as a dress-bayonet... Got to make dinner now but will try to come back later! Julian PS: Yes, bayonets, frustrating little b**gg**s aren't they? Mind you, I learnt last only what a cut-off is... We live, we learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2015 Yes stud works. Wood grips too. Looks very much a service piece. Thanks for taking time out to reply. Most helpful. TT Ps just rummaged again and found a chromed Erzatzt bayonet. No markings at all. Horrible BUT the scabbard its in is nice. 50 % field grey paint remains so a service scabbard. Bought this one inside but not the chromed monstrosity! No more lurkers now. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 May , 2015 Share Posted 5 May , 2015 Yes stud works. Wood grips too. Looks very much a service piece. Thanks for taking time out to reply. Most helpful. ... ... a chromed Erzatzt bayonet. No markings at all. Horrible BUT the scabbard its in is nice. 50 % field grey paint remains so a service scabbard. Bought this one inside but not the chromed monstrosity! No more lurkers now. Happy to help! I just checked with Friedag's Führer ..., and in 1914, in addition to colonial troops, then as far as I can determine, the kS 98 was official issue also to: Machinegewehr-Abteilungen (gunners only) Pioniere (searchlight units only) Telegraphentruppen (certain specialised grades and certain NCO's only) Luftschiffer(truppen) (certain specialised grades and certain NCO's only) Fliegertruppen (buglers only) That chromed Ersatz sounds really weird... But the scabbard sounds nice! None of mine have more than about 20% original paint on them... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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