trenchtrotter Posted 8 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2015 Please help. Found myself looking at my selection. Two German Butcher blades (one minus scabbard....where can I find one?). A 1915 Lithgow minus quillon, a lovely Sanderson 07 dated 10/17, a M17 with scabbard by Jewel 1918 and two 1886/93s. Well one is a 1886/93/15. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 Please help. ... Contagious things, aren't they? What date are the 98/05's? The early ones had leather scabbards but all began to be supplied with steel scabbards by late 1914/early 1915 owing to a shortage of leather - there is a letter to the State Arsenal at Amberg about this dated 19 January 1915 (Bayer. KA, FZM 2880). Although heavier (which is why they were initially rejected), they were of course more robust, and cheaper to make: I gather that one report says they cost 1.40 marks less than the leather version (but don't ask me the actual unit cost as I don't have those figures - yet!)... There were also problems in getting the fittings made for the leather ones... The best way to get a replacement steel one is the usual way... through luck. BUT some replica places do sell replica 98/05's so that's one possibility (and if you go that way, I'll happily have the grips of the unwanted replica!). Note, by the way, that only WAFFENFABRIK regularly marked their scabbards. I think (off-hand) that Haenl did also, but rarely, so if you have WAFFENFABRIKs, that's what you need. SS will probably be after you for details of the Lithgow; Sandersons are always fun to look at - does it have re-issue marks?; and a M17 with an original (green?) scabbard is, in my very limited experience (I don't collect and only have one), not that easy to find - does it still have the hooks for attaching to a belt? I guess that by 1886 etc., you mean the Lebel? In which case the one Lebel has the quillon and a 'German' silver handle and the other is without quillon and has the brass handle? Although I understand that there are exceptions to that being the case with the 1915 versions... But I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert - just an interested collector. Best, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 8 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2015 Both 98/05s are later ones. One has no markings at all other than a crown. Full guards and no ears! No re issue marks on the 07. The scabbard for the M17 retains hooks. The 1886/93/15 has a silvered hilt not that uncommon. TT PS I get bayonets relevant to rifles and uniform / equipment sets I have. What would be right for a K98 aZ dated 1916? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 PS I get bayonets relevant to rifles and uniform / equipment sets I have. What would be right for a K98 aZ dated 1916? TT, the S84/98 bayonet as shown below. This type incorporated the metal flashguard atop the hilt which is required for the Karabiner 98AZ. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 Both 98/05s are later ones. One has no markings at all other than a crown. Full guards and no ears! ... PS I get bayonets relevant to rifles and uniform / equipment sets I have. What would be right for a K98 aZ dated 1916? You mean simply a crown over the 'fraktur', like the mark beneath the date on SS's example? These ones without 'State' marks do pop up from time to time (I have a couple), sometimes with crossguard markings suggesting Bavarian use - who is the maker? That could help narrow down the date a bit more - in theory, the fraktur should reveal this but nobody (to the best of my highly imperfect knowledge) has ever listed these. However, as I understand it flashguards began to be fitted on the entire 98 bayonet series from 3rd September 1915 (Prussia) and 25th September (Bavaria) - those bayonets with units carrying carbines, though, started to fit them much earlier, from 2nd March 1915. The Kar 98 Aufpflanz-und-Zusammensetzvorrichtung (don't you love the way it trips off the tongue???!!!)... Well, SS is quite correct if you want the exact right issue bayonet for a 1916 made Kar.98AZ, but there are other possibilities! Depends, for example, on your uniform sets and if you know what unit the carbine was issued to, and whether you want the 'brand new' or 'veteran' appearance... For example, the Kar 98 (either/both models) was in use by some members of the infantry regiments and by various other units in 1914, and those men with these were issued with the S.84/98 (sans Schutzbleche, naturally!), but NCO's and others in units of Fussartillerie who carried the Kar.98 had the S.98/05 - and I would imagine that given the problems in logistics they could well have been using these bayonets (but with Schutzbleche) as late as 1916... The MGK boys, though, started out with the KS.98 to fit to their carbines, while I understand that Bavarian Landstrurm issued with Kar.98 had S.98/02! There are, of course, other exceptions to the rule, but that's the basics for these pedestrian units. The cavalry had no bayonets in 1914, and as I understand it, bayonets only began to be issued to them on 10 February 1915 (eastern front) and 8 April 1915 (western front). Now, the original decree on this matter, in late 1914, was for them to be supplied with S.84/98, but the wording of the February order indicates that they were being supplied with our old friend the 'orrible all-metal Ersatz...! And these did not begin to be withdrawn from service until late 1915, the process not being completed in Bavaria at least until March 1917, and note that they were withdrawn as necessary, rather than through a general issue of alternatives like the S.84/98... So you do have a choice if you go for the 'veteran' look, with his new carbine and his old bayonet and at least that gives you some leeway until you can find the correct dated 84/98! TTFN, Trajan PS: If you need the archival references for the information above send me a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 I think you should have started a new thread on this TT. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 Now now, Mr.Skipman, let's not have any stirring around the scuttle butt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 Hang in there TT ... and be sure to avail yourself of all the medication and counselling that you may require to see you through these dark times Oh - ow.!! I think TT must have overdone it with the medication .. How else can you explain this sudden interest in bayonet accessories.?? This is getting quite serious (such side-effects are often seen) I recommend we send in a team immediately and get him to a diversion centre. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 April , 2015 Share Posted 9 April , 2015 PS I get bayonets relevant to rifles and uniform / equipment sets I have. What would be right for a K98 aZ dated 1916? Just out of very general interest, where was it made, and does it have a numbered front band? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 9 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2015 Trajan, It's an Erfurt made gun and has matching numbers throughout. By number do you mean the last two digits of the full number? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 April , 2015 Share Posted 10 April , 2015 It's an Erfurt made gun and has matching numbers throughout. By number do you mean the last two digits of the full number? I'm not sure whether it should be the full number or just the last digits, but I do recall reading in one of my books at home something to the effect that they stopped stamping the number on the front band in (I think) the summer of 1916... I'll check at the end of the day and send you the reference. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 10 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2015 Mine does have the numbers on the band and on many other parts. It is the last two digits only. TT In addition can't recall if finger grooves on forestock. No grooves is a sign of earlier stock too I think. I think mine has not got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 April , 2015 Share Posted 10 April , 2015 It's an Erfurt made gun and has matching numbers throughout... ... In addition can't recall if finger grooves on forestock. No grooves is a sign of earlier stock too I think. I think mine has not got. I don't do rifles (or carbines!) really, but I pick up things on these while following up bayonets... Anyway, 3rd June 1916, Prussia decreed that the stamping of numbers on the front band was to stop as it deformed the band- that's what Bayer.Krieg Archive ref. FZM 2886 apparently says! Finger grooves I think came in at the end of 1916 or start of 1917. Best, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gew88/05 Posted 10 April , 2015 Share Posted 10 April , 2015 Anyway, 3rd June 1916, Prussia decreed that the stamping of numbers on the front band was to stop as it deformed the band- that's what Bayer.Krieg Archive ref. FZM 2886 apparently says! Interesting Trajan, somehow I have missed that and so, it seems, did the makers. The front band will have the last two digits of the serial number through the War. After the war they started stamping the full serial number. But then, I may be wrong.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulkheader Posted 10 April , 2015 Share Posted 10 April , 2015 Bayonets eehhh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 April , 2015 Share Posted 11 April , 2015 Interesting Trajan, somehow I have missed that and so, it seems, did the makers. The front band will have the last two digits of the serial number through the War. After the war they started stamping the full serial number. But then, I may be wrong.... That's interesting to know - that the makers seem to have ignored the decree! I am aware that units sometimes ignored official instructions regarding marking weapons - according to the 1909 regulations they were not to be marked in wartime but Ersatz and other post-August 1914 bayonets are. And despite an instruction in 1916 to cease all weapons' marking, there are pistols and the like made in 1917 with unit marks. But makers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 11 April , 2015 Share Posted 11 April , 2015 Is it not time that you lot fell on their swords? There must be a few ex riflemen about! Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 April , 2015 Share Posted 11 April , 2015 Is it not time that you lot fell on their swords? There must be a few ex riflemen about! Old Tom Please sir, pretty please, sir - it woz a rifle bloke wot started it! And anyway, we are back on rifles anyway, well, sort off, as it's a carbine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 2 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2015 Ok re the s84/98. Think I have sourced a 1916 made example with correct scabbard(throat screw above bayonet tang). It has a hole above the cross guard as opposed to a rectangular slot? Is this an issue or variation. The same dealer has a 15 dated one with the rectangle variation. Any advice. I presume this hole or slot was to clear crud? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 May , 2015 Share Posted 2 May , 2015 Ok re the s84/98. Think I have sourced a 1916 made example with correct scabbard(throat screw above bayonet tang). It has a hole above the cross guard as opposed to a rectangular slot? Is this an issue or variation. The same dealer has a 15 dated one with the rectangle variation. Any advice. I presume this hole or slot was to clear crud? TT I'm away from my books right now, but a s 84/98 with a round clearance hole... I think that what you have is an example made by one of the rarer makers, who, I think, also made 98/05's that way - well, there are some rare 98/05's with these! I'll check with Carter's volumes when I get back, although others may reply before then. Personally, I'd take both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 2 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2015 It's a Moves Werkes, Walton & Co, Mulhausen example. TT It's a Moves Werkes, Walter & Co, Mulhausen example. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 May , 2015 Share Posted 2 May , 2015 Ok re the s84/98. Think I have sourced a 1916 made example with correct scabbard(throat screw above bayonet tang). It has a hole above the cross guard as opposed to a rectangular slot? Is this an issue or variation. The same dealer has a 15 dated one with the rectangle variation. Any advice. I presume this hole or slot was to clear crud? Scabbard is steel or leather? Screw above frog stud is correct for GW It's a Moves Werkes, Walton & Co, Mulhausen example. Indeed it is! (well, WALTER, not Walton) They were - according to Carter vol II, pp. 178, they were one of the first makers of these ones, one being a unrealised double-edged prototype, the other the type you have - that circular clearance hole is the give-away here. And again according to Carter, all examples known to him were dated 1915... So, yes, go for that one, and in all honesty have a good look at the other one as well if you are want to be side-tracked into collecting these pointy things! And let's have a photograph! Best, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 2 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2015 Julian Many thanks. Will try and secure this one. It's a steel scabbard. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 2 May , 2015 Share Posted 2 May , 2015 Round clearance holes may also be found on Amberg stamped 98/05s. This one is additionally marked by Herder. 1915 dated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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