Seaforth Highlanders?

[gordon92]

Marjorie:

"So 2/4, 2/5 and 2/6 must have served elsewhere in the UK."

2/4 Formed at Dingwall, served at Ft. George, Blair Atholl, Pitlochry, and Stirling until 1916. Then at Norfolk until absorbed into 4th reserve Bn April 1918.

2/5 Formed at Golspie, served at Ft. George and Blair Atholl. In 1915 was absorbed by 2/6 Bn.

2/6 Formed at Elgin, served at Ft. George, Blair Atholl, and Aberfeldy until in 1916 it moved to Norfolk. Absorbed 2/5 Bn Nov 1915. Served in Norfolk until disbanded in Sept 1917.

Hazel,

I don't think anything about the 3rd Seaforth presence at Cromarty contradicts your theory that the photo is related to the hospital or convalescence. That the 3rd Seaforth received recovered casualties probably reinforces the theory.

Mike

[hazelclark]

I agree Mike, and I do know that in Aug.1915, although my Grandfather was with the 3rd Seaforth in Cromarty, he still considered himself a 1st Seaforth man as that is what is on his marriage certificate. It is just that that particular photograph looks like a motley crew and the crabby looking Seaforth on the end is in a couple of the Indian pictures. Can you see if he is a lance corporal?

Hazel

[gordon92]

I agree Mike, and I do know that in Aug.1915, although my Grandfather was with the 3rd Seaforth in Cromarty, he still considered himself a 1st Seaforth man as that is what is on his marriage certificate. It is just that that particular photograph looks like a motley crew and the crabby looking Seaforth on the end is in a couple of the Indian pictures. Can you see if he is a lance corporal?

Hazel

Hazel,

I think I can see (vaguely) a single chevron. So, he is a L/Cpl. Was your grandfather a L/Cpl at about this time?

Mike

[seaforths]

Thank you again Mike. I find the battalions serving at home and separating them from units training recruits or holding convalescing men very confusing. So, if the 4th Training were at Ripon, presumably the 3rd were at Cromarty? And they all operated independently so you could have men being trained at or convalescing at either of these locations - hence Sgt Harvey being at Cromarty?

I'm not this dim most of the time - honest! It's just something I've never managed to get a firm grasp on and it might help to do that now.

[hazelclark]

Hazel,

I think I can see (vaguely) a single chevron. So, he is a L/Cpl. Was your grandfather a L/Cpl at about this time?

Mike

Unfortunately, he was, according to the marriage certificate. By the following March (1916), when my uncle was born he was a L/Sergeant.. So maybe....................................

Thanks Michael!

H.

[seaforths]

Unfortunately, he was, according to the marriage certificate. By the following March (1916), when my uncle was born he was a L/Sergeant.. So maybe....................................

Thanks Michael!

H.

I'm trying to match him up with a photograph from India. Is he seated front row and 3rd man in from left??

[hazelclark]

I'm trying to match him up with a photograph from India. Is he seated front row and 3rd man in from left??

If you mean in the photograph on here, he is on the right front in Seaforth uniform but in one of the Indian pictures, which I am not sure you have, he is standing on the end. He is a crabby looking article in both!

H.

[seaforths]

If you mean in the photograph on here, he is on the right front in Seaforth uniform but in one of the Indian pictures, which I am not sure you have, he is standing on the end. He is a crabby looking article in both!

H.

Sorry Hazel, I didn't move fast enough - trying to get a ball of white fluff in from the garden!!

I know which man you mean on this thread photograph. I was trying to find him on an Indian photo but you as you probably guessed - I'm looking at a different one to you

The chap sitting, second last on the right - I'm sure I've seen his picture somewhere else and it's going to bug me for a very long time!

[hazelclark]

Sorry Hazel, I didn't move fast enough - trying to get a ball of white fluff in from the garden!!

I know which man you mean on this thread photograph. I was trying to find him on an Indian photo but you as you probably guessed - I'm looking at a different one to you

The chap sitting, second last on the right - I'm sure I've seen his picture somewhere else and it's going to bug me for a very long time!

Well, apparently he is HLI or something, but if you look at his neck you will see that either he is a minister (as a sergeant!!??) or he has a bandage round his neck!

H.

[seaforths]

Well, apparently he is HLI or something, but if you look at his neck you will see that either he is a minister (as a sergeant!!??) or he has a bandage round his neck!

H.

Yes, I thought dog collar immediately but I'm sure (unless it's my eyesight) I can see something white protruding on the left side (that would be the right side of his neck) which made me think of a bandage that was knotted on that side or, that he had a shirt under his jacket and the collar was awry. It's a pity the image is not a higher resolution. Again, this could just be my eyes but if I zoom right in on the guy second in from the left, it looks as though there is something wrong with his eyes - unless he has blinked. Then again, it might just be that I've zoomed too far and the image is just blurred. Would they have been wearing hospital blues if they were hospital patients at the time?

Another interesting snippet I read recently was that one of the officers was meticulously copying out the casualty lists and sending them home to a friend of his who was the editor of a Ross-shire newspaper so that he could then inform the families on the QT and they would get news privately and quicker. Apparently an Army Order was issued in 1915 to put a stop to the practice.

[gordon92]

Thank you again Mike. I find the battalions serving at home and separating them from units training recruits or holding convalescing men very confusing. So, if the 4th Training were at Ripon, presumably the 3rd were at Cromarty? And they all operated independently so you could have men being trained at or convalescing at either of these locations - hence Sgt Harvey being at Cromarty?

I'm not this dim most of the time - honest! It's just something I've never managed to get a firm grasp on and it might help to do that now.

Marjorie,

It is very confusing. No need to feel dim. I just happen to have this reference work by Angus Fairrie that recounts the history (briefly) of each Seaforth and Cameron battalion that is written with remarkable clarity, a credit to the author.

So, yes the 4th Reserve Bn was at Ripon Aug 1916 to to May 1918, and the 3rd was at Cromarty 12 Aug 1914 through 1919.

Mike

[hazelclark]

Yes, I thought dog collar immediately but I'm sure (unless it's my eyesight) I can see something white protruding on the left side (that would be the right side of his neck) which made me think of a bandage that was knotted on that side or, that he had a shirt under his jacket and the collar was awry. It's a pity the image is not a higher resolution. Again, this could just be my eyes but if I zoom right in on the guy second in from the left, it looks as though there is something wrong with his eyes - unless he has blinked. Then again, it might just be that I've zoomed too far and the image is just blurred. Would they have been wearing hospital blues if they were hospital patients at the time?

Another interesting snippet I read recently was that one of the officers was meticulously copying out the casualty lists and sending them home to a friend of his who was the editor of a Ross-shire newspaper so that he could then inform the families on the QT and they would get news privately and quicker. Apparently an Army Order was issued in 1915 to put a stop to the practice.

Don't know about "hospital blues" at that time and in that location. It was, after all, the back of beyond!

H.

[seaforths]

Marjorie,

It is very confusing. No need to feel dim. I just happen to have this reference work by Angus Fairrie that recounts the history (briefly) of each Seaforth and Cameron battalion that is written with remarkable clarity, a credit to the author.

So, yes the 4th Reserve Bn was at Ripon Aug 1916 to to May 1918, and the 3rd was at Cromarty 12 Aug 1914 through 1919.

Mike

Thanks once again Mike, I reckon I've fixed it in my head now. Yes, it makes all the difference having all the information collated together in one source. My problem has been that I've read a snippet here, picked up another snippet there and the wires in my brain have not linked and consolidated the information - result - confusion.

Just been looking at Sgt Harvey again. There are some notes added to the transcription of his diary 'Cromarty at the mouth of the Cromarty Firth was the training base of the Seaforth Highlanders at which WJH had been the senior sergeant of the training unit.' Arrived Calais 31 March 1918. Captured 11h April 1918. Medal roll shows over 2 pages of Sgts and Cpls which includes Harvey, all with 's' prefix service numbers followed by Tr.Res.1 service numbers then followed by 6th Seaforth numbers. Based on that, I suppose they could have all had previous service overseas with a service Bn. before going on to Tr. Res. staff and then a move to 6th Seaforth but I would have expected to see a Bn. number beside their initial s/***** service numbers and they don't have one - which made me think they had possibly not gone overseas prior to 1918 and had been at Cromarty. He had arranged to meet some 'Cromarty boys' on the 9th of April but his plans went awry.

[seaforths]

On 20/04/2015 at 07:52, hazel clark said:

Don't know about "hospital blues" at that time and in that location. It was, after all, the back of beyond!

H.

It seems they were around a lot longer than I thought...previous topic here:

 

 

[hazelclark]

Spiffy! It probably speeded up recovery so they could wear proper clothes!

H.

[seaforths]

Reading that other thread on Hospital Blues and their lapels coming back to reveal their white hospital shirts...I wonder if that is what we can see on that chap in the picture. Maybe they tried to cobble together bits of uniform together that they had in their possession. The very light socks on a couple of them are strange looking. More an 1980s/90s attire!! I wasn't sure if the crabbit man on the end was wearing shoes as opposed to boots or, just the way his hose/socks are lying or creased.

[gordon92]

Thanks once again Mike, I reckon I've fixed it in my head now. Yes, it makes all the difference having all the information collated together in one source. My problem has been that I've read a snippet here, picked up another snippet there and the wires in my brain have not linked and consolidated the information - result - confusion.

Just been looking at Sgt Harvey again. There are some notes added to the transcription of his diary 'Cromarty at the mouth of the Cromarty Firth was the training base of the Seaforth Highlanders at which WJH had been the senior sergeant of the training unit.' Arrived Calais 31 March 1918. Captured 11h April 1918. Medal roll shows over 2 pages of Sgts and Cpls which includes Harvey, all with 's' prefix service numbers followed by Tr.Res.1 service numbers then followed by 6th Seaforth numbers. Based on that, I suppose they could have all had previous service overseas with a service Bn. before going on to Tr. Res. staff and then a move to 6th Seaforth but I would have expected to see a Bn. number beside their initial s/***** service numbers and they don't have one - which made me think they had possibly not gone overseas prior to 1918 and had been at Cromarty. He had arranged to meet some 'Cromarty boys' on the 9th of April but his plans went awry.

Marjorie - I believe the Fairrie "Queen's Own Highlanders" softcopy book/pamphlet is still available from The Highlanders Museum. Could be a valuable addition to your reference library.

[seaforths]

Thanks Mike, I will try to get over there in June when in Morayshire and if I can get a copy, I most definitely will. I know you are a bit of a whizz with uniforms, was it usual for them to be wearing those light coloured socks with their trousers?

I've another couple of possible Cromarty instructor names to go on after digging into WJH diary a little more. I will check out their names with CWGC as at least one of them seems to have died and he is for sure, on the medal roll pages I mentioned earlier. If I can pick him up in The Scotsman casualty lists, it will hopefully tell me whether he was local to Cromarty, or from elsewhere. I want to have a look at their MICs too. One is called Leon Laing and the other (that was killed) Vic Staniford (from memory) but V is his middle initial on the medal roll.

[gordon92]

Thanks Mike, I will try to get over there in June when in Morayshire and if I can get a copy, I most definitely will. I know you are a bit of a whizz with uniforms, was it usual for them to be wearing those light coloured socks with their trousers?

I've another couple of possible Cromarty instructor names to go on after digging into WJH diary a little more. I will check out their names with CWGC as at least one of them seems to have died and he is for sure, on the medal roll pages I mentioned earlier. If I can pick him up in The Scotsman casualty lists, it will hopefully tell me whether he was local to Cromarty, or from elsewhere. I want to have a look at their MICs too. One is called Leon Laing and the other (that was killed) Vic Staniford (from memory) but V is his middle initial on the medal roll.

That is an interesting question about the socks, Marjorie. I never thought about them until you brought it up. Socks, of course, would have usually been hidden normally under hose tops or puttees. The only instance where they would have been visible was if worn with Highland shoes and trousers. I checked all the tables in the 1914 Clothing Regulations, and there is no mention of socks at all that I could find. My inclination is to say that soldiers had to provide their own socks, and color was not regulated. I could be wrong on this point though.

[seaforths]

Mmmm well not having a great deal of knowledge on unforms, I just thought they looked strange.

I looked at those two men. Leon Laing died in August as a POW. He was Black Watch, born Leith. The other man who he comments on: saddened to hear of the death of Vic Stanwell at Combrai (his spelling) - strange. Either he didn't die or, he wasn't commemorated. I tried looking for him on CWGC and Geoffs Search Engine and got nothing. His full name was Frederick Victor Stanwell. He has an MIC but not annotated with date of entry into theatre. Medal card and roll don't mention his death. I can't find a SDGW entry on him either.

Edit: extra information added re. Leon Laing.

Edit (again): Found Stanwell, he wasn't killed, he was captured 23 March 1918 and has ICRC records. They must have realised he was missing and thought he had been killed. Looks like he was registered at Langensalza, wounded left shoulder. He hailed from London, so not a Cromarty man.

[seaforths]

That is an interesting question about the socks, Marjorie. I never thought about them until you brought it up. Socks, of course, would have usually been hidden normally under hose tops or puttees. The only instance where they would have been visible was if worn with Highland shoes and trousers. I checked all the tables in the 1914 Clothing Regulations, and there is no mention of socks at all that I could find. My inclination is to say that soldiers had to provide their own socks, and color was not regulated. I could be wrong on this point though.

It seems that they were issued with underwear so I would have thought socks would be issued and regulated too. Just reading today about a battalion going for their bath (at the front) and afterwards picking up clean socks and uniform etc. However, would the socks that were sent out to them from home and via comforts committees be of a regulation type and colour or knitted to specific colours? As you point out, they wouldn't really be seen in most cases.

I know you are keen on uniforms Michael and perhaps you might be interested to know that the 7th and 8th KOSB were issued with the wrong pattern Glengarry in training. As there was a shortage, they continued to wear them until they were issued with Tams in France.

[gordon92]

It seems that they were issued with underwear so I would have thought socks would be issued and regulated too. Just reading today about a battalion going for their bath (at the front) and afterwards picking up clean socks and uniform etc. However, would the socks that were sent out to them from home and via comforts committees be of a regulation type and colour or knitted to specific colours? As you point out, they wouldn't really be seen in most cases.

I know you are keen on uniforms Michael and perhaps you might be interested to know that the 7th and 8th KOSB were issued with the wrong pattern Glengarry in training. As there was a shortage, they continued to wear them until they were issued with Tams in France.

One would think, Marjorie, that issued socks would be of a regulation weave and color; but that is something I have no knowledge of. It is too bad that Joe Sweeney is no longer with us; if anybody would have had that information, it would have been Joe. Underwear is definitely on the Personal Clothing list in the 1914 Clothing Regulations.

I would be interested in learning more about the wrong glengarries issued to the 7th and 8th KOSB. Is there a reference?

[seaforths]

One would think, Marjorie, that issued socks would be of a regulation weave and color; but that is something I have no knowledge of. It is too bad that Joe Sweeney is no longer with us; if anybody would have had that information, it would have been Joe. Underwear is definitely on the Personal Clothing list in the 1914 Clothing Regulations.

I would be interested in learning more about the wrong glengarries issued to the 7th and 8th KOSB. Is there a reference?

Mike, it is this book: https://ia601407.us.archive.org/26/items/borderbattalionh00ediniala/borderbattalionh00ediniala.pdf

If you open the book from the link, right click and select 'find' and type the word glengarry into the box it will find it exactly but you have to click the little triangle (next arrow) on the right side of the little box to find the next instance of the word, if that doesn't work, you will have to scroll to page 323. The book could also be downloaded from that link (I hope). I have the paper book. If you go to the back of the book there are appendices on administration, communication etc. The information on the Glengarries is just a few pages into the administration section.

I'm sure in one of the books I've read (and I'd have to do some digging around to find it again), there was something regarding difficulties providing and issuing socks in training. They were struggling to get kit together and a Colonel managed to procure/buy socks for all of his men. I'll see if I can locate that information too.

Cheers

Marjorie

[gordon92]

Marjorie,

You have awakened my curiosity about the light colored socks. I perused my archives looking for Highland soldiers wearing trousers to see if these socks were in evidence. Indeed, I found a prolific number of examples. See below for two examples; the first is a group of Camerons, the second a group of Gordons. From this, I think it is safe to conclude that these light shaded socks were issue items despite the absence of any mention in the Clothing Regulations.

Mike

[seaforths]

Mike I think you are right about the socks and great examples your photos. I have not been idle on the subject but I now find the hour is late for me to get the stuff I found typed up and posted. I found some information on them wearing shoes in the trenches early on, source relates to those coming from India to France so I don't know whether that was more widespread at that time. I will try to get ahead tomorrow and type it into Word in case time catches up with me again. At least then I will be prepared and can copy, paste and post the information.