Seaforth Highlanders?

[gordon92]

Mike I think you are right about the socks and great examples your photos. I have not been idle on the subject but I now find the hour is late for me to get the stuff I found typed up and posted. I found some information on them wearing shoes in the trenches early on, source relates to those coming from India to France so I don't know whether that was more widespread at that time. I will try to get ahead tomorrow and type it into Word in case time catches up with me again. At least then I will be prepared and can copy, paste and post the information.

Marjorie...All the Highland battalions wore shoes and spats into early 1915 when replaced with ankle boots and short puttees. There is an interesting account somewhere in Wauchope's History of The Black Watch Watch in The Great War recounting an incident where one soldier stepped into deep mud in a trench then lifting his shoeless foot with the shoe never to be seen again!

[Andrew Upton]

...All the Highland battalions wore shoes and spats into early 1915 when replaced with ankle boots and short puttees...

It was quite a bit earlier than 1915 that this process began - I have it in mind it was either September or October 1914 that the order was given out in France/Belgium that Highland regiments could go into boots and puttees in lieu of shoes and spats. The 2nd Seaforth Highlanders recorded in their war diary entry for December 31st 1914 a number of changes to uniform that they had adopted or recommended, which includes: "Boots and puttees: Boots and puttees have been drawn by the Battalion, as spats and hosetops were apparently not available. In many cases the boots were not good..."

[gordon92]

It was quite a bit earlier than 1915 that this process began - I have it in mind it was either September or October 1914 that the order was given out in France/Belgium that Highland regiments could go into boots and puttees in lieu of shoes and spats. The 2nd Seaforth Highlanders recorded in their war diary entry for December 31st 1914 a number of changes to uniform that they had adopted or recommended, which includes: "Boots and puttees: Boots and puttees have been drawn by the Battalion, as spats and hosetops were apparently not available. In many cases the boots were not good..."

Interesting, Andrew. Was there any elaboration on why the boots were not good?

[seaforths]

I recall seeing something in the WD about the boots being issued were not suited to the Indian soldiers whose feet were, I think broader. Perhaps it was something to do with that. Also, in the 7/8th KOSB (again, under the administration appendix) there was something about two different types of boot on issue. They seemed to be wearing an ammunition boot until they were on the verge of going to France which was replaced by, if memory serves me right, a general service issue boot just before they went and apparently, wasn't as good. I have no idea what an ammunition boot was.

[Andrew Upton]

Interesting, Andrew. Was there any elaboration on why the boots were not good?

They do - "In many cases the boots were not good, the soles not being sewn merely tacked. There seems very little wear in them." The entry above also makes reference to the "difficulty of obtaining fresh supplies of boots and jackets" and resorting to mending them "regimentally" and the problems there-in.

[Andrew Upton]

I recall seeing something in the WD about the boots being issued were not suited to the Indian soldiers whose feet were, I think broader. Perhaps it was something to do with that. Also, in the 7/8th KOSB (again, under the administration appendix) there was something about two different types of boot on issue. They seemed to be wearing an ammunition boot until they were on the verge of going to France which was replaced by, if memory serves me right, a general service issue boot just before they went and apparently, wasn't as good. I have no idea what an ammunition boot was.

Ammunition boot is generally just a reference to a normal issue military boot, so if the memory is correct referencing them against a general service issue boot would seem a tad strange... do you have the full quote to hand?

[seaforths]

Ammunition boot is generally just a reference to a normal issue military boot, so if the memory is correct referencing them against a general service issue boot would seem a tad strange... do you have the full quote to hand?

History of 7/8th KOSB p.323 'Before embarkation each man was supplied with a new suit of service dress uniform, and a pair of standard pattern boots, which were certainly not as comfortable or as serviceable as the regulation ammunition boot.'

[seaforths]

Here are my musings and results of digging around over the past couple of days:

SOCKS:

Mike, your point on the shoes is quite relevant to the photograph. If it was taken later, would they not all have been wearing issue boots by then? It does look like it is a mix in the photo of boots and shoes.

I think that socks were being issued and there is no mention of them in 6th Seaforth WD until the winter of 1917 is approaching. Possibly because previous experience on trench foot has taught them to stock up from different sources...6th Seaforth WD entries for socks are numerous, winter coming and the diarist is evidently keeping an eye on the sock situation!
‘The following articles have been received for the Battalion:- from the Association of Highland Societies; 100 pairs of socks, 24 shirts and 12 mufflers.’
Further entry ‘From 1/6 Seaforths Clothing Committee – 200 pairs socks, 32 pairs hosetops and 37 shirts.’Another entry ‘The following articles have been received from the 1/6th Seaforth Hrs Clothing Fund, Elgin, for the benefit of the Battalion:- on 23/10/17 = 32 pairs hosetops, 193 pairs socks, 36 shirts and on 28/10/17 = 28 pairs hosetops, 197 pairs socks, 40 scarves, 20 pairs mitts and 40 shirts.’

From 7th Cameron Highlanders on socks (at the front - location: Contay): 'This house proved of the greatest value, as the temporarily sick were employed in washing socks and hose-tops, which were dried in this room, so that every night we were able to send up a supply of dry socks,&c., to the men in the line in exchange for their dirty wet ones.'

From the 2nd Black Watch on arrival in France from India: 'Highland shoes and khaki gaiters were worn, but after the first few tours in the trenches it was found that the mud was of such consistency that numerous cases occurred of men pulling their feet clean out of their shoes, leaving the latter buried for all time in the mud, the unfortunate individual having to carry on his front line duties in his stockinged feet. During the month of December, 1914, the shoes and gaiters were finally discarded and were replaced by ankle boots and "half" or short puttees.'

Fairly sure the 4th Seaforth men went out to France in boots (November 1914) that were issued before they left. I would have difficulty locating that snippet again as it was a piece of back-referencing much further on in the book. However, it is a book I’ve read most recently. The officers ditched shoes and spats on 22 November 1914 in favour of boots and puttees – that was an early reference after they had arrived.


DEPOTS:
From the 3rd Cameron Hrs: 'On 13th August the battalion marched out of the Cameron Barracks and entrained for Invergordon, where it was destined to remain for the next three years acting as a feeder to the regular and service battalions at the front, and forming part of the garrison allotted for the defence of the naval base which had been established in the Cromarty Firth...'
The battalion had as its nearest neighbours the 3rd Battalion Black Watch and 3rd Battalion Scottish Rifles, which were quartered in hutments at Nigg, and the 3rd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders, which occupied Cromarty on the south side of the Firth. The forts, which had been constructed on the north and south Sutors to guard the entrance to the naval anchorage, were garrisoned by detachments of Royal Marine Artillery...

From 3rd Black Watch: It mentions that at the outbreak of war, the area was initially under the Admiralty but quickly changed and came under the War Office thence: '...mobilization orders were received for the Battalion to join the Brigade which was being formed under the command of Colonel H.K. Jackson, D.S.O., for the defence of Cromarty. The battalions forming the Brigade were:3rd The Black Watch and 3rd Scottish Rifles stationed at Nigg for the defence of the north Sutor Fort. 3rd Seaforth Highlanders stationed at Cromarty to defend the south Sutor Fort. 3rd Cameron Highlanders at Invergordon for guards over Naval oil tanks...The Battalion arrived at Nigg early on Sunday morning the 9th, and encamped on a shoulder of Nigg Hill. The 4th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders had been there for three days and had begun to put the place into a state of defence...Training greatly improved by the move into huts.The Battalion, however, suffered from the want of trained officers and non-commissioned officers, owing to the heavy reinforcements sent out. This want was in time filled by the return of wounded officers and non-commissioned officers, who, while they were with the Battalion previous to returning to the front, were an enormous help in the development of training for modern war...' Also mentions that as a Brigade, they carried out exercises together.

From 4th Seaforth Highlanders (as previously posted): 'Owing to the necessity of protecting the naval base at Invergordon, with its huge oil stores, the Seaforth and Cameron Infantry Brigade was ordered to garrison the North and South Sutors, the two headlands that guard the entrance to Cromarty Firth. By the afternoon of the 5th August over five hundred men of the 4th Seaforths were digging entrenchments at Nigg, where they had their first experience of billets.' On the 9th August they moved to Inverness and on the 15th August, they moved down to Bedford.

From 5th Seaforth Highlanders: 'On 5th August 1914 its mobilization, under Col. E.G. Buik, V.D., took place, the various companies concentrating at Nigg on the northern shore of the Cromarty Firth, whence, after a week spent in digging trenches for the defence of the Admiralty Forts on the North Sutor, it proceeded to Inverness'.

With regard to Lovats, the only thing I can find on them is that some of them were affiliated to the Black Watch and Cameron, so possibly in the area early on. However, HLI was mentioned by Hazel earlier. I'm thinking of local men treated at the hospital (see below - hospital blues) or a mix of men from the hospital and men on sick-leave (hence the guy in mufti).

Much of the above on depots is probably confirmed in your Fairrie source.

Reflecting on Hazel’s comment on hospital blues...they were over-stretched logistically. Given the early casualties, I wonder, would they have had, or been able to supply hospital blues in large numbers at that time when there might have been more pressing issues such as kit for men at/going to the front and munitions? The war that would be over by Christmas wasn’t and they were caught on the hop in many supply short-falls. Might be a question one of the forum hospital experts could shed some light on.

[Andrew Upton]

History of 7/8th KOSB p.323 'Before embarkation each man was supplied with a new suit of service dress uniform, and a pair of standard pattern boots, which were certainly not as comfortable or as serviceable as the regulation ammunition boot.'

Thanks - if I've got my dates right, that quote would be relating to around July 1915, having been formed in September 1914. This was the period where there were many substitutions of official military pattern kit with readily available civilian items that were deemed close-enough. I'm wondering if the author meant everyone had now got the latter when he was referring to "a pair of standard pattern boots".

[gordon92]

Here are my musings and results of digging around over the past couple of days:

SOCKS:

Mike, your point on the shoes is quite relevant to the photograph. If it was taken later, would they not all have been wearing issue boots by then? It does look like it is a mix in the photo of boots and shoes.

I think that socks were being issued and there is no mention of them in 6th Seaforth WD until the winter of 1917 is approaching. Possibly because previous experience on trench foot has taught them to stock up from different sources...6th Seaforth WD entries for socks are numerous, winter coming and the diarist is evidently keeping an eye on the sock situation!

‘The following articles have been received for the Battalion:- from the Association of Highland Societies; 100 pairs of socks, 24 shirts and 12 mufflers.’

Further entry ‘From 1/6 Seaforths Clothing Committee – 200 pairs socks, 32 pairs hosetops and 37 shirts.’Another entry ‘The following articles have been received from the 1/6th Seaforth Hrs Clothing Fund, Elgin, for the benefit of the Battalion:- on 23/10/17 = 32 pairs hosetops, 193 pairs socks, 36 shirts and on 28/10/17 = 28 pairs hosetops, 197 pairs socks, 40 scarves, 20 pairs mitts and 40 shirts.’

From 7th Cameron Highlanders on socks (at the front - location: Contay): 'This house proved of the greatest value, as the temporarily sick were employed in washing socks and hose-tops, which were dried in this room, so that every night we were able to send up a supply of dry socks,&c., to the men in the line in exchange for their dirty wet ones.'

From the 2nd Black Watch on arrival in France from India: 'Highland shoes and khaki gaiters were worn, but after the first few tours in the trenches it was found that the mud was of such consistency that numerous cases occurred of men pulling their feet clean out of their shoes, leaving the latter buried for all time in the mud, the unfortunate individual having to carry on his front line duties in his stockinged feet. During the month of December, 1914, the shoes and gaiters were finally discarded and were replaced by ankle boots and "half" or short puttees.'

Fairly sure the 4th Seaforth men went out to France in boots (November 1914) that were issued before they left. I would have difficulty locating that snippet again as it was a piece of back-referencing much further on in the book. However, it is a book I’ve read most recently. The officers ditched shoes and spats on 22 November 1914 in favour of boots and puttees – that was an early reference after they had arrived.

DEPOTS:

From the 3rd Cameron Hrs: 'On 13th August the battalion marched out of the Cameron Barracks and entrained for Invergordon, where it was destined to remain for the next three years acting as a feeder to the regular and service battalions at the front, and forming part of the garrison allotted for the defence of the naval base which had been established in the Cromarty Firth...'

The battalion had as its nearest neighbours the 3rd Battalion Black Watch and 3rd Battalion Scottish Rifles, which were quartered in hutments at Nigg, and the 3rd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders, which occupied Cromarty on the south side of the Firth. The forts, which had been constructed on the north and south Sutors to guard the entrance to the naval anchorage, were garrisoned by detachments of Royal Marine Artillery...

From 3rd Black Watch: It mentions that at the outbreak of war, the area was initially under the Admiralty but quickly changed and came under the War Office thence: '...mobilization orders were received for the Battalion to join the Brigade which was being formed under the command of Colonel H.K. Jackson, D.S.O., for the defence of Cromarty. The battalions forming the Brigade were:3rd The Black Watch and 3rd Scottish Rifles stationed at Nigg for the defence of the north Sutor Fort. 3rd Seaforth Highlanders stationed at Cromarty to defend the south Sutor Fort. 3rd Cameron Highlanders at Invergordon for guards over Naval oil tanks...The Battalion arrived at Nigg early on Sunday morning the 9th, and encamped on a shoulder of Nigg Hill. The 4th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders had been there for three days and had begun to put the place into a state of defence...Training greatly improved by the move into huts.The Battalion, however, suffered from the want of trained officers and non-commissioned officers, owing to the heavy reinforcements sent out. This want was in time filled by the return of wounded officers and non-commissioned officers, who, while they were with the Battalion previous to returning to the front, were an enormous help in the development of training for modern war...' Also mentions that as a Brigade, they carried out exercises together.

From 4th Seaforth Highlanders (as previously posted): 'Owing to the necessity of protecting the naval base at Invergordon, with its huge oil stores, the Seaforth and Cameron Infantry Brigade was ordered to garrison the North and South Sutors, the two headlands that guard the entrance to Cromarty Firth. By the afternoon of the 5th August over five hundred men of the 4th Seaforths were digging entrenchments at Nigg, where they had their first experience of billets.' On the 9th August they moved to Inverness and on the 15th August, they moved down to Bedford.

From 5th Seaforth Highlanders: 'On 5th August 1914 its mobilization, under Col. E.G. Buik, V.D., took place, the various companies concentrating at Nigg on the northern shore of the Cromarty Firth, whence, after a week spent in digging trenches for the defence of the Admiralty Forts on the North Sutor, it proceeded to Inverness'.

With regard to Lovats, the only thing I can find on them is that some of them were affiliated to the Black Watch and Cameron, so possibly in the area early on. However, HLI was mentioned by Hazel earlier. I'm thinking of local men treated at the hospital (see below - hospital blues) or a mix of men from the hospital and men on sick-leave (hence the guy in mufti).

Much of the above on depots is probably confirmed in your Fairrie source.

Reflecting on Hazel’s comment on hospital blues...they were over-stretched logistically. Given the early casualties, I wonder, would they have had, or been able to supply hospital blues in large numbers at that time when there might have been more pressing issues such as kit for men at/going to the front and munitions? The war that would be over by Christmas wasn’t and they were caught on the hop in many supply short-falls. Might be a question one of the forum hospital experts could shed some light on.

Marjorie -- All dates and geographic positioning consistent with what Fairrie says. You found the exact quote on the shoe lost in the mud!

[gordon92]

They do - "In many cases the boots were not good, the soles not being sewn merely tacked. There seems very little wear in them." The entry above also makes reference to the "difficulty of obtaining fresh supplies of boots and jackets" and resorting to mending them "regimentally" and the problems there-in.

Noteworthy. The "Mr. Selridge" TV series last year makes reference to faulty boots and war profiteering. Their source for this must, therefore, have been legitimate.

[seaforths]

Mike, the BW and Cameron books are on my 'to read' pile. So I was cheating a little delving into them prematurely to gather information. The reference to a CO buying socks for his battalion in training still eludes me. I have a feeling it may have been referring to a Gordon battalion but I have the feeling the reference was made by someone from another regiment. No doubt I will come across it again when I'm not looking for it.

And sorry to bother you with an off topic question on Fairrie's publication. I have a list of the geographical locations of the 8 companies of the 6th Seaforth prior to the war but do not have anything that shows how those companies were then amalgamated down to 4 companies. I have that information for the 4th Seaforth and 4th Cameron but the 6th Seaforth information would allow me to put the rest of my Seaforth relatives on the ground. So far, I've only managed to find out the companies of 2 of those that served (one from a NOK letter sent from an officer to my great, great grandparents and the other by identifying an officer in a photograph who was listed in the diaries as commanding a particular company the day before the photograph was taken). Does Fairrie give this information on their company amalgamation?

[seaforths]

Thanks - if I've got my dates right, that quote would be relating to around July 1915, having been formed in September 1914. This was the period where there were many substitutions of official military pattern kit with readily available civilian items that were deemed close-enough. I'm wondering if the author meant everyone had now got the latter when he was referring to "a pair of standard pattern boots".

That is quite possible although prior to this he makes mention of the variety of unsuitable civilian footwear the men were given. I will go back and check out that information, and yes, you are correct with the date.

I wonder, would it be unreasonable/reasonable to make a stab at dating the photograph based on the footwear we can see in it?

[gordon92]

Mike, the BW and Cameron books are on my 'to read' pile. So I was cheating a little delving into them prematurely to gather information. The reference to a CO buying socks for his battalion in training still eludes me. I have a feeling it may have been referring to a Gordon battalion but I have the feeling the reference was made by someone from another regiment. No doubt I will come across it again when I'm not looking for it.

And sorry to bother you with an off topic question on Fairrie's publication. I have a list of the geographical locations of the 8 companies of the 6th Seaforth prior to the war but do not have anything that shows how those companies were then amalgamated down to 4 companies. I have that information for the 4th Seaforth and 4th Cameron but the 6th Seaforth information would allow me to put the rest of my Seaforth relatives on the ground. So far, I've only managed to find out the companies of 2 of those that served (one from a NOK letter sent from an officer to my great, great grandparents and the other by identifying an officer in a photograph who was listed in the diaries as commanding a particular company the day before the photograph was taken). Does Fairrie give this information on their company amalgamation?

Marjorie - Alas, Fairrie mentions nothing about the company amalgamations in the 6th Seaforth or any other battalion for that matter. Sorry I cannot be of help on this point.

[seaforths]

Many thanks for that Mike. Back to the drawing board for me on that one!

With regard to the photograph, might there be a newspaper archive somewhere in existence, where photographs might have made an appearance? For example, the Elgin Archives seem to have holdings of the Elgin Courant, Courier and Banffshire Advertiser but they cannot be accessed online - it takes a personal visit.

[hazelclark]

Many thanks for that Mike. Back to the drawing board for me on that one!

With regard to the photograph, might there be a newspaper archive somewhere in existence, where photographs might have made an appearance? For example, the Elgin Archives seem to have holdings of the Elgin Courant, Courier and Banffshire Advertiser but they cannot be accessed online - it takes a personal visit.

Now that Marjorie, is a distinct possibility, but might have to wait until I go home to check the "Press and Journal" and the "Ross-shire". i keep thinking that Eric may get to the bottom of it but I know he is otherwise occupied at the moment.

H.

[seaforths]

Now that Marjorie, is a distinct possibility, but might have to wait until I go home to check the "Press and Journal" and the "Ross-shire". i keep thinking that Eric may get to the bottom of it but I know he is otherwise occupied at the moment.

H.

Well, I can honestly say I wouldn't know where to start looking for those archives. Although I would be interested to know of them. I'm still trying to track down one of the men captured with granddad from North Kessock as I've a feeling he may have enlisted under a tee name.

Forum pal sfarrell might be able to give you some hints/tips for searching local papers up there. He is very knowledgeable and it was he that found the information in the papers from my g-g-grandparents about William.

[seaforths]

Marjorie -- All dates and geographic positioning consistent with what Fairrie says. You found the exact quote on the shoe lost in the mud!

Mike, managed to pick up a copy of Fairrie at Ft. George last week. Plenty stock of both hardcover and paperback available there. I've not had time to look at it properly yet but thank you for the pointer on the book - can't go far wrong at a tenner for hardcopy. It seems like one of those books you need to get to know through using it often! However, I'm hoping it will answer a few questions for me and might even save time hunting through a variety of different books to find a piece I'm looking for, so thanks again.

[gordon92]

Mike, managed to pick up a copy of Fairrie at Ft. George last week. Plenty stock of both hardcover and paperback available there. I've not had time to look at it properly yet but thank you for the pointer on the book - can't go far wrong at a tenner for hardcopy. It seems like one of those books you need to get to know through using it often! However, I'm hoping it will answer a few questions for me and might even save time hunting through a variety of different books to find a piece I'm looking for, so thanks again.

Glad you picked it up, Marjorie. Let me know what you think after you have had time to rummage through it.

Mike

[DutchTommy]

Please take a look at this item. I think one of the men on the photo is "my" Sergeant Bushnell.