Seaforth Highlanders?

[hazelclark]

Found this photograph on the Cromarty Image Library today and since I am still looking for my grandfather, wondered if these men could be Seaforth Highlanders. Am trying to find where it came from although it says "no contributor" so may have come from Archives somewhere in Cromarty. The caption simply says that they are "Cromarty Men". So, would anyone know if they are indeed Seaforth, since Cromarty was their Depot?

thanks,

Hazel

[headgardener]

The Seaforths were a kilted regiment. As none of these men are wearing kilts then it's unlikely that any of them are Seaforths. The men 2nd from the L of the rear row and extreme R sitting are both wearing the sort of headgear worn by Seaforths and a number of other Scottish regiments, but the badges aren't visible. The only Seaforths who didn't wear kilts were horsemen who were part of the transport section. Nothing about this photo suggests that they have anything to do with a transport section, though.

A number of different regiments appear to be represented in the group, so it's likely the they are staff at a depot of some kind.

[hazelclark]

Thanks. The guy on the right (sitting) is in another picture I have of the Seaforth in India wearing a kilt. Cromarty was the Depot for the Seaforth.

Hazel

[rolt968]

The sergeant seated second from the right looks like a Lovat Scout.

RM

[hazelclark]

Oh boy! Wonder what it is all about?! I am trying to get some information from an historian I know in Cromarty.

Hazel

[headgardener]

The sergeant seated second from the right looks like a Lovat Scout.

RM

The hat looks about right, but not the badge.

[clk]

Hi Hazel,

I'm well. well, well out of my depth in identifying cap badges, but from a layman's perspective all the visible badges (1st and 2nd row left hand side, and 1st and 2nd men, 1st row right hand side) seem to be different sizes and shapes. Perhaps the caption should be taken on face value, and that the connection is that they were all born in, or residents of Cromarty, rather than just the same unit being stationed there.

Regards

Chris

[hazelclark]

Hi Hazel,

I'm well. well, well out of my depth in identifying cap badges, but from a layman's perspective all the visible badges (1st and 2nd row left hand side, and 1st and 2nd men, 1st row right hand side) seem to be different sizes and shapes. Perhaps the caption should be taken on face value, and that the connection is that they were all born in, or residents of Cromarty, rather than just the same unit being stationed there.

Regards

Chris

Hi Chris,

I am thinking that may be the case, but can't imagine why such a mixed bunch would be photographed together. I don't think that the picture was taken in France, since it ended up in Cromarty. I know absolutely nothing about uniforms, but am making enquiries. As you say, to a lay person (me) they all look different. Except that the sitting guy on the right is/was definately a Seaforth as he is in a picture I already have from India.

Hazel

[Ron Abbott]

My first thought was also that the seated sergeant was Lovat Scouts based on the headwear, but when you focus in/enlarge the photo, the capbadge appears to be that of the HLI.

It's certainly a similar shape and size to that of the HLI.

The soldier in the middle of the front row does not appear to be wearing any cap badge.

As for the others wearing glengarries, the cap badges can't be viewed.

[brownag]

It's very hard to make out the badge but I would suggest the seated sergeant was in the Scottish Horse.

A couple of suggestions for who the group are:

Repatriated prisoners-of-war

Men recuperating from wounds or illness who were back home in Cromarty.

Adam

[hazelclark]

It's very hard to make out the badge but I would suggest the seated sergeant was in the Scottish Horse.

A couple of suggestions for who the group are:

Repatriated prisoners-of-war

Men recuperating from wounds or illness who were back home in Cromarty.

Adam

Hi Adam,

Thanks for that. You may have nailed the reason for the picture. A friend who specializes in uniforms suggested that the picture looks to be about 1915, which would make sense. For instance that would have been when my grandfather was in Cromarty after recovering from his first wound, which he received some time after landing in France in October 1914 from India. I still have a friend in Cromarty trying to hunt down the source!

Hazel

[steve345uk]

The Scottish Command Depot was based at Nigg in Cromarty, so these could be men from various different battalions?

http://www.1914-1918.net/command%20depots.htm

The purpose of a Command Depot was convalescence and retraining.

A relative of mine, William Mackie (16th Royal Scots, 19062) was wounded at Lys in April 1918 and when he left hospital in England, he was posted to SCD at Cromarty, where recovered for a few weeks..

I doubt there was a "command depot" uniform and these soldiers were simply wearing their original uniforms.

There was also a Military Hospital at Cromarty (linked to the Depot?), where William Mackie died from the 'flu a few weeks after he was posted to the SCD. William died four days before the end of the war. So these could be soldiers from the hospital or depot.

Edited 16 April , 2015 by steve345uk

[steve345uk]

ps. the following is a great place to see the various uniforms of the Seaforth and local Dornoch history. There was definitely no standard Seaforth uniform or hat!

http://www.historylinksarchive.org.uk/

Just type "Seaforth" into seach.

[hazelclark]

Thanks for that Steve. Yes there was hospital in Cromarty, although last time I was home, discovered that it wasn't the place I thought. There was a small "cottage" hospital in the town but there was also a military hospital just outside, at Newton. It seems that someone is researching that at the moment, and as I will be going over later in the year will see what he has discovered. There was a suggestion (rumour) that the records still exist for that hospital. As my grandfather was a career soldier and NCO with the 1st Seaforth when wounded the first time, it sounds as though he was sent to the Depot in Cromarty and was involved with training recruits for Kitchener's armies. He went back to France with the 8th Bn. I noticed in the Silver War Badge Roll that a lot of the wounded Seaforth's were "discharged from Depot"

Thanks for your help. In the unlikely event that I get to see any records will check for your relative! Do you have,or want, a picture of he grave?

Hazel

[steve345uk]

Hazel, Thanks for the offer to check for any records, much appreciated. I've seen his service records which suggest he was shot through the heal near the Lys river on 9th April 1918. He's buried only a few miles from where I live in Edinburgh, so I've been to his grave. Many of my (Scottish) relatives lived in the lowlands but enlisted with highland regiments, due to family connections.

http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/scottishwargraves-ftopic160-45.html

And a picture I found at the Scottish Library (below), from the now defunct Edinburgh Evening Dispatch.

Also several relatives in the Cameron Highlanders and also two relatives from the Grantown-on-Spey area, with the Seaforths:

Harry Grant Mackie 6th Seaforth Highlanders (Piper) Sgt 1729 DOW at Loos

and his nephew

Angus Douglas Laing 6^th Seaforth Highlanders 17551

Unfortunately no mention of either in the book of the battalion, by Derek Bird.

Enjoy your trip!

Thanks

Steve

Edited 16 April , 2015 by steve345uk

[seaforths]

Thanks for that Steve. Yes there was hospital in Cromarty, although last time I was home, discovered that it wasn't the place I thought. There was a small "cottage" hospital in the town but there was also a military hospital just outside, at Newton. It seems that someone is researching that at the moment, and as I will be going over later in the year will see what he has discovered. There was a suggestion (rumour) that the records still exist for that hospital. As my grandfather was a career soldier and NCO with the 1st Seaforth when wounded the first time, it sounds as though he was sent to the Depot in Cromarty and was involved with training recruits for Kitchener's armies. He went back to France with the 8th Bn. I noticed in the Silver War Badge Roll that a lot of the wounded Seaforth's were "discharged from Depot"

Thanks for your help. In the unlikely event that I get to see any records will check for your relative! Do you have,or want, a picture of he grave?

Hazel

Hazel, Thanks for the offer to check for any records, much appreciated. I've seen his service records which suggest he was shot through the heal near the Lys river on 9th April 1918. He's buried only a few miles from where I live in Edinburgh, so I've been to his grave. Many of my (Scottish) relatives lived in the lowlands but enlisted with highland regiments, due to family connections.

http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/scottishwargraves-ftopic160-45.html

And a picture I found at the Scottish Library (below), from the now defunct Edinburgh Evening Dispatch.

Also several relatives in the Cameron Highlanders and also two relatives from the Grantown-on-Spey area, with the Seaforths:

Harry Grant Mackie 6th Seaforth Highlanders (Piper) Sgt 1729 DOW at Loos

and his nephew

Angus Douglas Laing 6^th Seaforth Highlanders 17551

Unfortunately no mention of either in the book of the battalion, by Derek Bird.

Enjoy your trip!

Thanks

Steve

Hi Hazel,

I have the diary of a 6th Seaforth man captured 1918 he was a senior Sergeant instructor at Cromarty prior to going overseas for the first time in 1918 and I've a feeling they moved the Seaforth training units from Fort George to Cromarty in 1916. I also have a feeling that there were Cameron and Lovats around in the area. It was something I read recently so I will have a plod back through that book over the weekend and see if I can relocate that information. It would be a real bonus if there were surviving records for the hospital as it would be intruiging to find out information about the hospital. I wonder if anything on Cromarty was transferred to the museum at Fort George? The image looks as though it has come from a photograph/postcard rather than a newspaper cutting but it might have ended up being published locally in a newspaper.

Steve, all due respect but I think your man Mackie (Harry Grant - 1729) was a casualty of Beaumont Hamel in November 1916. The 6th Bn. were not directly involved in Loos.

[steve345uk]

You are of course absolutely right that Harry Grant Mackie died from wounds at Beaumont Hamel in 1916 and appears to have died on 16-11-16, three day after being wounded on 13-11-16. Thanks for the correction.

I was confusing Harry Grant Mackie with John Mackie Hay another relative in the Cameron Highlanders. As you can see below, there were a lot of my grandfather, Simon Forbes's brothers, cousins and other direct relatives in the WW1, including three Hay brothers, from Edinburgh, all of who died during WW1. All below are directly related, there are even more in-laws! In the unlikely event someone else is researching any of them, I'm happy to explain the relationships.

Simon Forbes 10^th Highland Light Infantry 355579 Flanders 1918 14^th Light

Richard Fletcher Forbes 5^th Scottish Rifles 201700 Somme 1916 9^th Scottish Myalgia in hips and legs

William Forbes 1/1^st Scottish Horse 4523 Gallipoli 1915, Egypt and Salonika Various

13^th Black Watch 315108 France 1918 50^th Northumbrian

William Mackie 16^th Royal Scots 19062 Somme 1916, Arras and Passchendaele 34^th Division Wounded Somme, GSW Lys,

12 Platoon, “C” Company DOW 7-11-18, b.Edinburgh

Hugh McKay Mackie 5^th Cameron Highlanders S/11665 Loos 1915 9^th Scottish GSW and POW 25-9-15

Douglas Mackie 9^th Battalion, 3^rd Brigade 1815 Gallipoli 1915, Somme, Arras, Ypres 1^st Australian GSW and Gassed

Graeme Grant Mackie RAMC and Labour Corps 90270 Italy and France Shrapnel both legs

Alexander Wyllie Mackie RAF 101 and 81 Squadrons 15975 France 1918

Harry Grant Mackie 6th Seaforth Highlanders Sgt 1729 Somme 1916, Beaumont Hamel 52^nd Highland DOW 16-11-16, b.WIMEREUX

Thomas Stanley Trevena 22^nd Battalion, 6^th Brigade Sgt 701 Gallipoli 1915, Somme 1916 2^nd Australian KIA 5-8-16, c.VILLERS-BRETN.

John Mackie Hay 5th Cameron Highlanders Sgt S/10135 Loos 1915 9^th Scottish DOW 28-9-15 b CHOCQUES

William Douglas Hay 7th Cameron Highlanders CSM S/12876 “C Company”, Loos 1915, Somme 1916 15^th Scottish KIA 17-8-16 c Thiepval Mem

Alexander Hay 4^th Argyll and Sutherland S/23763 Served at home Edinburgh Died Meningitis 8-1-18

Angus Douglas Laing 6^th Seaforth Highlanders 17551 France and Palestine 52^nd Highland GSW shoulder

William Mackie Laing Royal Engineers 377098 France 1918 Accident bomb wounds both legs

Apologies for any confusion, I'll be more careful with the cut and paste next time,

Steve

Edited 17 April , 2015 by steve345uk

[seaforths]

Sorry Steve - I thought you might have him right after all but concerned you might have collected duff information from somewhere. I know the feeling as Hazel will probably agree - I am prone to suffering from Morrison - itis from time to time! Then throw in a couple of Thomsons, a Proctor Duncan and Proctors and I'm in the same boat. Especially as two Morrison cousins with the same Christian name serving at the same time in the same units...I have to keep using my ancestry stuff and look at their parents to make sure I'm dealing with the right one!

I'm visiting the clan up there in June but I'm not sure how much research I will achieve in a fortnight. Hazel's post has prompted me to look for information on the Gordon Castle, Fochabers. I believe at some point, part of it was given over to make a military hospital during the war and I will try to visit their Heritage place in an old church on Main Street while I'm there to see if I can find anything out. I suspect many of the little towns had some sort of hospital set-up but Cromarty, having such a large concentration of military might have been a larger and purpose made hospital facility.

Hazel, I will try to locate that information on Cromarty I was reading. You know the defences that you can see, on the shore going along the Sutors? Well, what I was reading was to do with making those defences, trenches etc. I'm hoping it is in Haldane's book and therefore easy to find again having just finished it recently.

I would also be interested in finding out what the set-up was at Golspie. So far, I've discovered that 5th Seaforth demobbed there after the war and granddad (who was by then 8th Seaforth) also demobbed there after the war. It may have been some sort of depot/admin facility.

[steve345uk]

I don't envy you with names like Morrison and Thomson! Throw in a few Williams for first names and its enough to make you despair. The other side of my family are Johnsons so I know the feeling

[hazelclark]

Hi Marjorie,

That would be super! I have my Cromarty sleuths on the trail of the hospital information. Time for a phone call to them I think.

I really think that the people at Fort George have a lot of stuff they either don't know about, or don't tell you about. Will see if I can arrange things so that I can actually spend a whole day there next time. It is likely going to be late August or September before I get over, depending on what is going on here.

Hazel

[seaforths]

Hi Hazel,

I've found what I was looking for and it was indeed Haldane's History of the Fourth Seaforth. I was going to make a note of it at the time but as I noticed two indices at the back; one for place names and one for men's names, I didn't do that (thinking I would be able to locate it again easily using the appropriate index). I then found this evening, much to my chagrin, it is overseas place names that are listed. But a swift read through the first 48 pages got me there!

This is for 1914 and the very start of the war...

'Owing to the necessity of protecting the naval base at Invergordon, with its huge oil stores, the Seaforth and Cameron Infantry Brigade was ordered to garrison the North and South Sutors, the two headlands that guard the entrance to Cromarty Firth. By the afternoon of the 5th August over five hundred men of the 4th Seaforths were digging entrenchments at Nigg, where they had their first expereince of billets.'

On the 9th August they moved to Inverness and on the 15th August, they moved down to Bedford. I'll keep plodding through a bit further over the weekend and see if I can find any more information and the reference to Lovats.

Edit: typo

[seaforths]

I do wonder if the men in the photograph were local men who had been wounded, no longer fit for service overseas and awaiting their fate with regard to their Army service.

From the same book as above with regard to 4th Seaforth, Haldane states 3/4th Seaforth moved from Ardesier on 3rd November to Ripon. The writing of Lt Col. Mason-MacFarlane who had been overseas with and in charge of the Bn. until wounded at Neuve Chapelle gives the following information:

'In January 1916 I was passed fit for service at home and was posted to the command of the 3/4 Seaforth Highlanders, stationed at Ripon. Within a few months the 3/4th, 3/5th and 3/6th Seaforth Highlanders were amalgamated and formed the 4th Reserve Training Battalion The Seaforth Highlanders, whose function was to train recruits and form a depot for the officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the 4th, 5th and 6th Seaforths who were convalescent and waiting to be again sent to their fighting units in France...' He also says that the raw recruits received 10 weeks training.

However, it now makes me wonder about the 6th Seaforth Sergeant, who was a senior instructor at Cromarty - I will see if I can find out any more information on him and his role at Cromarty. I had initially thought that they moved the training from Fort George/Ardesier to Cromarty and Ripon was for officers but that seems not to have been the case. The only other explanation that springs to mind right now is that the 2nd line battalions were trained at Cromarty (for home service) being more local to the Highlands, that might make sense.

[gordon92]

Reference: Angus Fairrie's History of the Queen's Own Highlanders

Marjorie and Hazel,

According to the above reference the only sustained presence at Cromarty of elements of the Seaforth Highlanders was the 3rd (Special Reserve) Bn. "It moved by sea to Cromarty on 12th August 1914, and remained as the Cromarty Garrison until the end of the war. It formed an important element of the coastal defence plan around the Naval base of Invergordon. It's wartime role was to provide drafts of reinforcements for the battalions in the front line and men for the newly formed service battalions. The men came from both the recruiting offices and from casualties that had returned from the front. Its strength varied from between 1150 to 2600. At the end of the war the 3rd Seaforth moved from Cromarty to Glencourse where it was disbanded in 1919."

The 1/4th Seaforth, 1/5th Seaforth, and 1/4th Camerons had a very brief presence at Cromarty for less than two weeks in August 1914 before moving on to the Highland Division training base at Bedford. 2nd Line Territorial battalions had no presence at Cromarty. The 3rd Line Seaforth Battalions were stationed first at Ardersier (the village nearest to Ft. George) and then at the 3rd Line Training Centre of the Highland Division at Ripon. The 4th Reserve Training Bn Seaforth Highlanders absorbed the 3/4th, 3/5th, and 3/6th Bns in 1916.

I hope the above may be of relevance and interest.

Mike

[seaforths]

Thanks Mike,

Yes I understand a little better now. So 2/4, 2/5 and 2/6 must have served elsewhere in the UK...I'm hoping to get some quality time on the PC tomorrow so I will re-check Sgt. Harvey (6th Seaforth instructor). From memory, he was in his early 40s and MIC indicates he went overseas for the first time arriving in France back end of March 1918 and captured 9th April. I've a feeling, from my previous research on him or in fact his own diary, that there were a number of older instructors sent out from Cromarty at this time. I guess they were trying to fill the gaps caused by the huge casualties at the time. He originally hailed from Leith and if he saw anyone from there, he did tend to name them. However, when does mention he sees men from Cromarty, he doesn't name them.

That they sent those to Ripon to convalesce before going back to the front (well, according to Haldane/Mason-MacFarlane) they must have done something with those who they thought might not recover fully for front line duties; home leave or possibly a hospital near their homes, hence the mix of uniforms in the photograph. Possibly awaiting medical boards to decide whether they could be used for home service or were to be demobbed, purely conjecture on my part.

[hazelclark]

Marjorie and Mike,

I still think that the photograph is somehow related to the hospital or "convalescence" at the Depot. I do know that medical boards to determine whether a man was fit to return to duty were held periodically at Invergordon. They mostly don't seem smartly enough dressed to be in a training exercise. But, on the other hand, there must have been some "official" reason for the photograph as cameras were not all that common at the time, and it isn't just a "snap" that someone took.

I am still hoping that Eric will trace the source of the photograph, which MAY throw some light.

Thanks for your help.

Hazel