Terrylee Posted 14 May , 2015 Share Posted 14 May , 2015 Trajan, Both the Martini Enfield Artillery Carbines have the U Broad Arrow marking in addition to the Natal marking. This indicates that they were still in government stock at the time of Union. It appears that the Cape received the Mk.I and Mk.II while Natal issued two versions of the Mk.III. I cannot comment on the P.1903 Bayonets. They are uncommon in South Africa and I have yet to see one with South African markings. Original P.1888s sometimes bear Union or local regimental markings. So far as I'm aware, all P.1888s manufactured in South Africa during WW II are marked with the U Broad Arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 14 May , 2015 Share Posted 14 May , 2015 Jscott, you could be correct. However, I note that the two "V" marked Pat. 1888 bayonets are marked in exactly the same way. We thus cannot overlook the possibility that a South African bayonet found its way to Australia or perhaps vice-verse! But here is another "V" marked bayonet, a Pat. cutlass 1871 as issued to the Natal Naval Volunteers for use on their Swinburn Henry Rifles in the mid 1880s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 14 May , 2015 Share Posted 14 May , 2015 I guess that the same "V" could have been used to signify SA volunteer units and Victoria. At the time these were marked (presumably pre-1914) I don't think there would have been much chance that the bayonets would have been mixed up, and perhaps this was just the standard font for a "V" which was used to represent Volunteer or Victoria as necessary. Firstly I would be happy to go along with Terrylee's claim that the markings are of South African origin, as with many of these things, we are working with limited information on such 'unknowns'. Just a single letter can mean anything and without further supporting information it is all just guesswork. Of course it is a possibility that the the same letter V was being used in different places. I have added the photos below as a comparison, the P1888 of Jezzageorge on the left, and the V marking on one of my Victorian hookies on the right. The letter V is similar but size may differ.? Getting back to JScotts comment, there is also every possibility for bayonets to have been mixed up, as during the time of the Boer War their were several Victorian contingents sent over to SA. So I think more information is called for on the dates/periods that the different V's were being used in SA, and how common the SOS mark is on that equipment, and if marked with the SA U^ etc. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 May , 2015 Share Posted 15 May , 2015 ... as with many of these things, we are working with limited information on such 'unknowns'. Just a single letter can mean anything and without further supporting information it is all just guesswork. ... Too true... However, it is noticeable that these 'V' marks are found on the frog studs also, and that there are no serial numbers on the crossguards of any of these shown to date. I am not aware of any such 'V' marks on the frog studs of P.1907's, but what would be a clincher, in a sense, would be a bayonet with a single 'V'-marked crossguard but with evidence of Australian use in the form of a later MD mark or similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 15 May , 2015 Share Posted 15 May , 2015 As an aside, there is no possibility of any Pattern 1907 bayonets being marked to the Natal Volunteers. They became Militia as from late 1903. 4,000 Magazine Lee Enfields (Long Lees) were acquired for the first category, the "Active Militia". These rifles are stamped "C.A.M." To date I have not come across a Pat.1888 bayonet with this marking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 15 May , 2015 Share Posted 15 May , 2015 To show just how little information we have to go on, we still don't even know the dates of manufacture of the 2 Patt.88 bayonets in question. That would be a good start.! From the photo Jezzageorge posted I can see that his bayonet is a Mk.II version made by Enfield, so at least that narrows the dates down to between mid-1899 and 1903. So that tells us that this particular marking on this particular bayonet could not have been added prior to 1899. (Related bayonets with SOS marks should have similar dates) EDIT. To my way of thinking it would be foolish to try to directly compare the marking systems as found on P1907's to what is found on a P1888. Things do change over a decade.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 15 May , 2015 Share Posted 15 May , 2015 My "South African" V-marked Patten 1888 bayonet Mk.II is a Wilkinson E.R. dated 5.02. It could thus not have seen Boer War service since peace was actually signed on the 31st May. This date would, however, put it within the manufacturing range (1900 - 1904) of the Mk.III Martini Enfield Artillery Carbines with which the Natal Field Artillery Volunteers were equipped. These V-marked carbines fitted the Pat.1888 bayonet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Thanks for adding the details Terrylee. Yours also has the SOS marking, right.? It will be interesting to see what the dates are on Jezzageorge's bayonet. And that is exactly the kind of information we need regarding the rifles. To check and compare the V markings on those rifles of the same date and period. You could measure the size of the stamped letter on the rifles and compare with the bayonet. And do those rifles also have the SOS mark stamped as well.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezzageorge Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Hi. My 2nd pattern 1888 bayonet was made by Enfield in January 1903 and it has the SOS stamp on the pommel...ER crown of course on the ricasso...the grips are nicely slamped with the Enfield mark and the whole bayonet is in excellent condition...virtually unissued.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 ... And do those rifles also have the SOS mark stamped as well.? It looks like the one in post 46 does... Look on the right side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Hi. My 2nd pattern 1888 bayonet was made by Enfield in January 1903 and it has the SOS stamp on the pommel...ER crown of course on the ricasso...the grips are nicely slamped with the Enfield mark and the whole bayonet is in excellent condition...virtually unissued.... Well, it fits with Terrylee's dates for the Natal Volunteers - and 'V' was the usual weapons marking in GB at least at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th. As an aside, there is no possibility of any Pattern 1907 bayonets being marked to the Natal Volunteers. They became Militia as from late 1903. 4,000 Magazine Lee Enfields (Long Lees) were acquired for the first category, the "Active Militia". These rifles are stamped "C.A.M." To date I have not come across a Pat.1888 bayonet with this marking. Terrylee, any 'M' marked examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Shippingsteel, The size of the "V" markings on my Pat. 1888 bayonet is 3mm while those on the carbines is 4.5mm - rather large to fit the bayonet crosspiece. This bayonet in question has the British reversed broad arrows disposal mark as do nine out of ten of my Cape or Natal marked Martini Metford/Enfield Carbines. I also have several other Pattern 1888s with this disposal mark, but without the V. I believe that the British disposal mark was routinely applied to all rifles supplied to the Cape and Natal Governments. One of my carbines also bears the unique Union Government disposal mark. That the others do not is probably due to the fact that most ended up as cadet rifles where their eventual disposal was less formalised. Trajan, I have never seen a Pattern 1907 bayonet with the U -M marking and rather doubt that i ever shall. So far as I'm aware this marking was only introduced in the early1960s by which time the P. 1907 was obsolete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 ... Trajan, I have never seen a Pattern 1907 bayonet with the U -M marking and rather doubt that i ever shall. So far as I'm aware this marking was only introduced in the early1960s by which time the P. 1907 was obsolete. My bad phrasing! What I meant was do you know of any P.1888's or P.1903's marked with 'M' for Militia in view of your comment that: "...the Natal Volunteers. ...became Militia as from late 1903" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Trajan, I have never seen a Pat.1888 with militia markings. Actually, the Natal Militia only lasted until about 1912 when all the colonial units were incorporated into the Union Defense Force. I have archival proof that "C.A.M." is a Natal marking. It is obvious that "A.M." stands for the officially termed "Active Militia", Unfortunately, the document does not cover what the "C" stands for. The best guess up to now is "Colonial" Any other suggestions? Pat. 1903 Bayonets are rather uncommon in South Africa. However, I have seen one marked to the Natal Light Horse, a unit which was raised in 1914 specially for the German South West African Campaign. An N.L.H. marked S.M.L.E. Mk.I* in my collection suggests that this unit was armed with these rifles. I expect that the 1903s were supplied with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Not really all that related but another way that P88s can get a "V" on them is from the pre T.F. "Volunteer Battalions" as in: This is an August 1902 Dated Enfield P1988 Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Not really all that related but another way that P88s can get a "V" on them is from the pre T.F. "Volunteer Battalions" as in: Oh I think it is somehow related, which is what I was speculating in post 61... That is, though, a lovely clear marking Chris, on that P.1888. Most of mine are blurry to say the least - I only discovered yesterday that when looking at one of my Ersatz that, thanks to the sun's angle, it had traces of a unit marking on the crossguard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Thanks for the extra information regarding the dates. At least that allows us to rule out any involvement in the Boer War, or mixing of bayonets from any Victorian contingents. And the close proximity in dates between both those bayonets would strongly suggest that they are 'related' and probably from the same batch that were provided to Natal etc. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 July , 2015 Share Posted 1 July , 2015 Anyone have any thoughts on this VR / 06 96 / WILKINSON LONDON? Perhaps WAM = Western Australian Militia? A WILKINSON LONDON VR 06/96... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 Well, I have been through what I can about the marking on the one above, including OTC units, with no luck... However, to add to the possibility of this being an Australian marked P.1888 it did come from a collector down under! Anyway, just for the record, here are some more photographs... As one can see, this has been around a bit, and as SS is evidently now back from his extended layover, perhaps he'd like to [A], comment on the mark, and , indulge himself with an analysis of the ricasso markings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 July , 2015 Share Posted 11 July , 2015 Anyone have any thoughts on this VR / 06 96 / WILKINSON LONDON? Perhaps WAM = Western Australian Militia? A WILKINSON LONDON VR 06/96... Not found out anything more about the mark on this one, and surprised that SS, who knows his Australian marks, hasn't commented, but I have discovered that in 1894, legislation was passed to allow the creation of a militia force in Western Australia. I followed up a number of other leads and references, and although nothing specific, did find a listing of places in WA that apparently had militia units. So, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I shall assume it is indeed a marking for the Western Australia Militia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 12 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2015 Hi Trajan I agree that Western Australia Militia is the most likely explanation (in the absence of any alternatives that I'm aware of). I'm assuming that there is no sold out of service marking? Its a nice bayonet, looks to be in good condition. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 July , 2015 Share Posted 12 July , 2015 ... I agree that Western Australia Militia is the most likely explanation (in the absence of any alternatives that I'm aware of). I'm assuming that there is no sold out of service marking? Its a nice bayonet, looks to be in good condition. Thanks J! Yes, it is nice condition, and so will be on the display rail at some point when I can get a spare frog - replica probably. No, no SOS mark, and although I have looked everywhere I can, but there is certainly nothing I have seen in the Armourer's lists for regular GB or OTC units that comes anywhere close to this WAM marking, and so by process of elimination... There are no visible markings on the scabbard leather, and the only markings on the chape and locket are Birmingham ones - 'crown / B / 63' on the chape, and 'crown / B / 01' or 'O1' on the locket. I am aware that P.1888 scabbards were made by A. Cooper, of Birmingham, but have no idea as to how the lockets and chapes on these were stamped. Do you have any data / input on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 24 April Share Posted 24 April On 09/03/2015 at 20:48, jscott said: Hi all I was wondering whether anyone has seen or owns an Australian or NZ marked P88 or P03 bayonet? I collect Australian bayonets and (British) unit marked P88/ P03 bayonets but have never once seen one marked with Australian or NZ markings. This seems a little odd as I understand that the NZ units used P88s early in the war, and I have seen at least one photo from Gallipoli which would suggest that the Australians used P03 bayonets (although I concede that this is slightly speculative). I'd be really interested to hear if anyone has any information on this. Thanks, Jonathan @shippingsteel New Zealand Expeditionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted Sunday at 01:21 Share Posted Sunday at 01:21 On 24/04/2024 at 17:37, navydoc16 said: @shippingsteel New Zealand Expeditionary Unfortunately that doesn't ring true, the NZEF left NZ armed with MLEs & the NZMRs with MkIII SMLEs the former being rearmed with SMLEs either picked up at Gallipoli or when rearmed by the British Your NZ marking is either post war or an embellishment Pre war NZ bayonets only had the rifles inventory number stamped on the cross guard (or pommel P1888s) no NZ or N^Z, any dated pre war or war time that are stamped NZ were stamped post war, same applies to the rifles, any NZ on a Long Lee other than the butt tang is post war & any stamped on a SMLE other than the butt socket is post war or at least this is my understanding but not mine alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted Sunday at 02:55 Share Posted Sunday at 02:55 Yes, the caveat being the 1918 dated SMLE rifles and P1907 bayonets which are believed to have been N^Z stamped immediately post-war. When the returning New Zealand troops handed in there battle worn rifles and had them replaced with brand new 1918 rifles and bayonets issued out of British stores. An example P1907 bayonet from my collection shown below. This being an 8/18 Wilkinson stamped with the N^Z on the pommel. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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