trajan Posted 11 May , 2015 Share Posted 11 May , 2015 Hi....I have a very nice 1888 pattern bayonet, type 2 ! and is has a Romanised V on the cross- guard and on top of the tang. The pommel has the sold out of service symbol too. And, the frog stud on the scabbard also has the same V.....Could this be Victoria, Australia.....I have seen the same V on 1907 's. I also have a 1903 pattern bayonet marked Q ^ P and SOS on the pommel. The scabbard is numbered the same as the bayonet...it is in near mint condition and one of only 300 issued to the QP....Queensland Police. The crossguard mark Sounds Australian to me - but no number? Also, the V on the tang and frog studs sounds odd... Perhaps SS will comment? But the 1903? I have no idea or (FWIW!) opinion - BUT, I though that the QP received P.1907's only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 11 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2015 They sound like interesting bayonets JG, any chance you could post a photo of those markings? The first is almost certainly Victoria (see the first few posts of SS's Australian Bayonets thread), although I've only seen the V marking on p07 bayonets. The second, as you say is Queensland police - another nice marking to have. I haven't seen those marks on a P03 before but don't see why they wouldn't have used them. Great finds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 11 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2015 Here is another p88 which I acquired recently, which has some interesting early-Australian markings. It has the sold out of service arrows on the pommel and scabbard, the early-Australian style numbering on the cross guard (with matching number cut into the handle itself), and it has "CNF" on the other side of the cross guard, which I interpret (in the context of the other markings) as being to the Commonwealth Naval Forces, the precursor to the Australian Navy. Another tick in the Australia box is that the seller has had the bayonet in his collection from pre-internet days, indicating it hasn't been imported. I'd be interested to hear whether others agree with this interpretation of the CNF marking - it seems to be a rare marking and I could only find one other reference to this marking on an Enfield site. I'm yet to find any shots of Australian navy personnel during WW1 with bayonets to compare (i.e. to see if they carried P88's) but will keep looking. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 11 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 11 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2015 ...and in terms of staying on topic - I thought that given the CNF existed between 1902 to 1911, this bayonet, marked between those dates, may well have been later carried by a member of the Australian navy during WW1... although I am still trying to give additional weight to that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 11 May , 2015 Share Posted 11 May , 2015 Yes J, definitely Australian use for that bayonet. C.N.F. in this case indicating Cadet Naval Forces, so you weren't too far off.! (ref: Skennerton 'Broad Arrow') Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 11 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2015 Thanks S>S. I know very little about either the cadet naval forces or commonwealth naval forces, but saw this post and thought that the style of pre-war stamping (i.e. with SOS mark) may favour the latter of the two. http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=42788 Either way, happy to have another Australian used P88. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 May , 2015 Share Posted 11 May , 2015 Lovely find Jscott! EDIT: following that link and seeing that post about the rifle marking reminded me that Skennerton is not infallible, and so not much in it - although I'd stick with Commonwealth Naval Force given the date of yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 11 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2015 Thanks Trajan, it needs a little oil and wire wool, but happy to find another Aussie P88. I find things tend to come in runs - a year ago I was finding lovely unit marked imperial German bayonets wherever I looked. Haven't seen one in my price range in ages now, and yet since S>S's helpful response re Australian markings on P88s, have found 3 of them in a few months (including one already sitting undeciphered in my collection). Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 11 May , 2015 Share Posted 11 May , 2015 Regarding the CNF markings I have no proof either way, but going on the photo shown below I can't see how it can mean Commonwealth whatever, when it is also marked to WA.? Much weaponry is found marked to Cadet Forces in Australia, they were a major user of the more obsolete equipment so sounds right to me. Skennerton's lists are well researched. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 11 May , 2015 Share Posted 11 May , 2015 With all the above said, it is always very interesting to do some further research into these kind of topics. Just looking now and "Citizen Naval Forces" is quite a strong contender ... Feel free to do your own Googling, but at the moment I am feeling more than a little surprised that the above abbreviation is not shown in any of the normal sources and listings.? Cheers, S>S EDIT. Looks like you have 2 choices of Naval Forces and they were in operation concurrently the Commonwealth Naval Forces (pre RAN) and the Citizen Naval Force (pre RANR) And strangely enough, both of these organisations (and abbreviations) have managed to escape Skennerton's research. Which is why they are not shown on the normal listings ??? Nevertheless they certainly did exist, and examples of the marking exist. I now believe the bayonet could show either marking, but the buttstock stamping is likely Citizen Naval Force. Here are some supporting links ... http://www.navy.gov.au/history/feature-histories/how-old-australia%E2%80%99s-navy (also read second last paragraph) https://www.awm.gov.au/glossary/term-c/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 12 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2015 Thanks SS, it's a fairly confusing area, and as you say, vey odd that these unit markings have been ignored by Skennerton and others. I've been reading his book on Australian bayonets, and note that he isn't very specific on markings there either - your analysis of p88 and p07 Australian markings is far more comprehensive than his. In another book he openly states that he has little interest in unit markings and that they are not a source of value to him, so potentially he was not as thorough with this aspect of his research as he is with other aspects of bayonets. Just a thought. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezzageorge Posted 12 May , 2015 Share Posted 12 May , 2015 Here is the pommel of my QP, Queensland Police, 1903 pattern bayonet.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezzageorge Posted 12 May , 2015 Share Posted 12 May , 2015 The whole thing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezzageorge Posted 12 May , 2015 Share Posted 12 May , 2015 My 1888 with V on cross guard, top of tang and frog stud.. The whole thing.... The whole thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 12 May , 2015 Share Posted 12 May , 2015 That does look to be the same font letter V as used on the P1907's, and is pointing the same way down, so chances are it is the marking for Victoria. The Queensland Police equipment is invariably found in "near mint" condition, as they didn't see much service, and sat around in small-town stations. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 12 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2015 Nice bayonets JG, thanks for posting the pictures. Agree with SS that the V is probably for Victoria which makes it a very nice find! Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezzageorge Posted 12 May , 2015 Share Posted 12 May , 2015 Correct SS......I have a very nice QP rifle to go with the bayonet. The rifle funnily enough was in the same small town that I had lived in for 28 years and was then sent to Brisbane in 1986 to be sold off.....I am hoping to trade rifle and bayonet, though not matching numbers, for a good 1913 made Lithgow hooked quillon bayonet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 13 May , 2015 Share Posted 13 May , 2015 I find this matter of the "V" marked bayonets very interesting. I have an identically marked Pattern 1888 which originated in South Africa. Here, the "V" marking is associated with the Natal Volunteers before they became militia. This marking comes in three versions. The earliest is as on my avatar and the final one similar to those on the "V" marked bayonets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 May , 2015 Share Posted 13 May , 2015 I find this matter of the "V" marked bayonets very interesting. I have an identically marked Pattern 1888 which originated in South Africa. Here, the "V" marking is associated with the Natal Volunteers before they became militia. This marking comes in three versions. The earliest is as on my avatar and the final one similar to those on the "V" marked bayonets. Well that puts a new light on things! I did wonder why there was no serial number on these V ones if they were for Victoria as the P.1907's so marked have these. Also I wasn't so certain as SS was that it is the same die and/or font - my Victoria marked P.1907 has a larger 'V'... Terrylee, are the ones that you know of all regulation-marked bayonets? I.E., crown and cipher and date? The reason I ask this is that my understanding has always been that Volunteer units did not have bayonets with crowns, ciphers, and date marks - although, as useful, I welcome corrections! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 13 May , 2015 Share Posted 13 May , 2015 Trajan, The Pat.88 in the previous photo is the only one that I have marked with the "V". My other marked bayonet is a Pat.1875 which has the second version of the V marking. This V marking, in its various forms, is most frequently found on rifles originally issued to the Volunteer Regiments. I have about nine examples in my collection. I also attach a very typical marking on a Martini Enfield cavalry carbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 May , 2015 Share Posted 13 May , 2015 ... This V marking, in its various forms, is most frequently found on rifles originally issued to the Volunteer Regiments. Thanks for posting those! I think I can safely speak for many GWF members in saying that the SA side of things (bayonets certainly and I guess rifles also) is very much an unknown area to most... Mike Rose in Australia has been doing a lot of work on P.1888's and so forth and so he may have something to add to this discussion - I'll PM him. Once again, though, thanks for joining in and especially for sharing this information with us all. There will be debates and alarums and so forth from some (maybe excursions also??!!!) - but it is very useful to have it! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 13 May , 2015 Share Posted 13 May , 2015 The Natal Volunteer "V" markings on two Martini Enfield Mk.III Artillery Carbines as issued to the Natal Field Artillery with Pattern 1888 bayonets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 May , 2015 Share Posted 14 May , 2015 Nice photograph there - is that a “U” with Broad Arrow (Union of South Africa) mark on the side of the bottom one? What's the mark on the top one? Were P.1888's or P.1903's ever pommel-marked this way? - I know that P.1907's were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 14 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2015 Terrylee - some great photos there, looks like you have a fabulous collection of rifles and bayonets with these volunteer markings. I guess that the same "V" could have been used to signify SA volunteer units and Victoria. At the time these were marked (presumably pre-1914) I don't think there would have been much chance that the bayonets would have been mixed up, and perhaps this was just the standard font for a "V" which was used to represent Volunteer or Victoria as necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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